Action Problem

ghostwhistler

Hello, I recently purchased a Cort Action DLX bass. It's a nice instrument with a very light body, a decent tone, nice finish, and the intonation is good. However, I've found that the action is a shade higher than I'd like. When I lower it, I'm getting fret buzz, particularly on the E string and mainly between the 5-12th frets. I put a bit of relief on the neck, as much as I'm comfortable with, but it's not made much difference. The neck and frets otherwise seem fine. I'm not a technician, but I've not found any answers to this problem. Thanks.

paul_c2

http://basschat.co.uk/topic/289330-cort-action-dlx-setup/page__p__3103404#entry3103404

http://basschat.co.uk/topic/289543-guitar-setup-expertise-claims/page__p__3106310#entry3106310

ghostwhistler

Why is it acceptable to follow someone around from forum to forum, trolling them?

ICBM

ghostwhistler said:

Hello, I recently purchased a Cort Action DLX bass. It's a nice instrument with a very light body, a decent tone, nice finish, and the intonation is good. However, I've found that the action is a shade higher than I'd like. When I lower it, I'm getting fret buzz, particularly on the E string and mainly between the 5-12th frets. I put a bit of relief on the neck, as much as I'm comfortable with, but it's not made much difference. The neck and frets otherwise seem fine. I'm not a technician, but I've not found any answers to this problem. Thanks.

Start by doing some simple checks…

1 - nut height. Fret each string at the third fret (so it's also resting on the second) and look at the gap between the string and the first fret. Any more than the thickness of a business card is too much, and preferably slightly less - although there should be at least a *tiny* gap.

2 - relief. Hold the bass in the playing position and fret each string at the first fret and the first that's over the body. Look at the gap between the string and the fret around the 7th-8th frets. It should be less than half the G string diameter ideally - although again, there must be a tiny gap.

3 - bridge saddle height. Play notes hard at the first few frets over neck joint area. If they rattle, the bridge is too low. If they don't rattle at all you can probably lower the saddles.

You can fine-tune it a bit better than this, but if it passes these basic tests it will be in the right ballpark. If it appears to pass but still has problems such as rattle in the low positions, either the neck is incapable of being adjusted properly straight (eg an s-bend) or the fretting is uneven.

If the nut height needs lowering or there are neck and/or fretting problems you probably need professional help, unless you're good with tools for other purposes and can learn how to do it yourself.

ghostwhistler

1, the strings are close enough that i can slip a card in but with some resistance, so possibly too close. I don't know.
2.relief is about 1/16 inch. i had added some relief to try and ease the buzz.
3.They don't seem to rattle. Maybe a tiny tiny amount if i play hard. But the action is already as high as i could stand it, that's the issue. Ideally I'd like it lower. The E string particularly as that's the highest string of all (by a small margin).

I can't tell if the fretting is uneven, it looks ok to me. But i don't have any means to verify. I've tried adjusting the neck somewhat, as much as I dare. Whth

ICBM

ghostwhistler said:

1, the strings are close enough that i can slip a card in but with some resistance, so possibly too close. I don't know.
2.relief is about 1/16 inch. i had added some relief to try and ease the buzz.
3.They don't seem to rattle. Maybe a tiny tiny amount if i play hard. But the action is already as high as i could stand it, that's the issue. Ideally I'd like it lower. The E string particularly as that's the highest string of all (by a small margin).

I can't tell if the fretting is uneven, it looks ok to me. But i don't have any means to verify. I've tried adjusting the neck somewhat, as much as I dare. Whth

1. Slightly too much, but not too bad. If you can get the card in at all it's not too close.
2. Much too much relief. That will give a higher action than you would like.
3. If you reduce 2 but it then rattles too much in the low/middle part of the neck, raise the bridge saddles - even if it doesn't rattle at the top end.

If you can't get any of this to give an acceptable combination of action and lack of rattling, it's possibly worth having a professional look at it.

You can use a credit card as a simple 'fret rocker' to test if there are one or two high frets, although you really need a proper steel straightedge to look at the whole neck at once to check for an uneven bow.

ghostwhistler

How does the addition of relief give a higher action? I thought that if the strings buzzed in the low frets that was a sign of a lack of neck relief?

ICBM

If you have too much relief the strings will be too far from the frets in the middle of the neck, even if the saddles are low enough that they aren't too high at the body end. Imagine a slightly straighter bow (and arrow) .

This is the single most common mistake in set-ups, although the nut being too high runs it a close second.

In general, almost all guitars that come to me for a set up have the nut too high, too much relief, and the saddles too low. This is partly because 'lowering the action' seems to be most easily done by lowering the saddles, and a lot of people are afraid of adjusting the truss rod.

In general you want the neck as straight as you possibly can. The problem with some (especially cheaper) guitars and basses is that the neck and fretting aren't good enough to allow this, so you end up having to add too much relief to try to stop it rattling.

You may well find that it's a bit of a balancing act to try to get the neck straight enough without causing rattling or having to have the saddles unfeasibly high - you just have to go for the best compromise by feel and ear.

ghostwhistler

Ok, well i've eased off the relief, but i'm still getting fret buzz of a discernible nature.

I spoke to a technician in a shop i won't immediately name who said that i shouldn't even touch the truss rod or lower the action; in other words without knowing exactly what you are doing...leave it to a professional.

I don't really see how making the neck more straight is going to help the buzz though. If it's the case that the instrument is just designed for an action that's higher than I owould like then I'm going to have a problem.

I've lowered the strings all across the neck as much as I can stand because I wanted to see how comfortabel it was playing low, as is my preference, and never mind the buzz. The main culprits are the 10 and 11 frets on the low E, then the 5  and 6 frets, plus some buzz on the 15th of the A.

Maybe the nut is too low, though i've no way of telling if the nut is the issue and I have to assume, like the frets, it's designed properly. Or at least as intended. I've not found any reviews of this instrument that say it has these issues by default.

Maynehead

First of all, set the relief to around 0.012" or slightly less. Then raise the bridge until action is around 1/16" at the 12th. If you still get buzzing then carry on raising the bridge until it stops.

Over compensating on the relief will either give you excessively high action or buzzing further up the neck.

ICBM

ghostwhistler said:

Ok, well i've eased off the relief, but i'm still getting fret buzz of a discernible nature.

I spoke to a technician in a shop i won't immediately name who said that i shouldn't even touch the truss rod or lower the action; in other words without knowing exactly what you are doing...leave it to a professional.

I don't really see how making the neck more straight is going to help the buzz though. If it's the case that the instrument is just designed for an action that's higher than I owould like then I'm going to have a problem.

I've lowered the strings all across the neck as much as I can stand because I wanted to see how comfortabel it was playing low, as is my preference, and never mind the buzz. The main culprits are the 10 and 11 frets on the low E, then the 5  and 6 frets, plus some buzz on the 15th of the A.

Maybe the nut is too low, though i've no way of telling if the nut is the issue and I have to assume, like the frets, it's designed properly. Or at least as intended. I've not found any reviews of this instrument that say it has these issues by default.

No, the nut is not too low if you can get anything like a piece of card under the strings with them fretted at the 3rd fret. It may still be slightly too high - most instruments come from the factory like that.

To lower the action you need to straighten the neck, not add relief. Then raise the bridge if necessary.

But from your description of where it's buzzing, you have uneven fretting and/or neck problems. It may well be that without fixing that, you just can't get the action as low as you would like.

ghostwhistler

I've noticed the neck, as i look down the fingerboard from the bridge, isn't uniform. Under the G string, on that side of the neck, the board is slightly further than under the E string.

If that makes sense.

Is it natural.

ghostwhistler

Maynehead said:

First of all, set the relief to around 0.012" or slightly less. Then raise the bridge until action is around 1/16" at the 12th. If you still get buzzing then carry on raising the bridge until it stops.

Over compensating on the relief will either give you excessively high action or buzzing further up the neck.

Doesn't straightening the neck increase the likelihood of buzz beyond the 12th fret?

Maynehead

No, the exact opposite actually.

Given the same 12th fret action, a neck with more relief will have a higher chance of buzzing above the 12th fret, because you have to lower the bridge more to compensate for the increased action caused by the extra relief.

ghostwhistler

ICBM said:

ghostwhistler said:

Ok, well i've eased off the relief, but i'm still getting fret buzz of a discernible nature.

I spoke to a technician in a shop i won't immediately name who said that i shouldn't even touch the truss rod or lower the action; in other words without knowing exactly what you are doing...leave it to a professional.

I don't really see how making the neck more straight is going to help the buzz though. If it's the case that the instrument is just designed for an action that's higher than I owould like then I'm going to have a problem.

I've lowered the strings all across the neck as much as I can stand because I wanted to see how comfortabel it was playing low, as is my preference, and never mind the buzz. The main culprits are the 10 and 11 frets on the low E, then the 5  and 6 frets, plus some buzz on the 15th of the A.

Maybe the nut is too low, though i've no way of telling if the nut is the issue and I have to assume, like the frets, it's designed properly. Or at least as intended. I've not found any reviews of this instrument that say it has these issues by default.

No, the nut is not too low if you can get anything like a piece of card under the strings with them fretted at the 3rd fret. It may still be slightly too high - most instruments come from the factory like that.

To lower the action you need to straighten the neck, not add relief. Then raise the bridge if necessary.

But from your description of where it's buzzing, you have uneven fretting and/or neck problems. It may well be that without fixing that, you just can't get the action as low as you would like.

Ok, i'll try setting the neck, but i don't have a guage to measure that fine a width, is there any substitute? I was using a credit card as suggested elsewhere. All i've got is a tape measure that goes 1/32 of an inch.

Maynehead

For measuring relief I use feeler gauges under the 7th fret.

If you don't have any, cut a strip off a normal business card and use that as a feeler gauge, that is just about right.

FelineGuitars

Sounds like you are having issues with the strings hitting the uppermost frets when playing in the fret 5-12 region.

It could be that the neck kicks up a little at the end or there may be a small degree of twist in the neck.

If the buzz is between 5 and 12th frets then you possibly want to have less relief - up to the point just before you are likely to incur buzz from frets 1-5. 

This will lower the overall action a little

Then you might raise the bridge height to give you the same action as you had to start with but it will help give clearance over the last few frets.
However as you have described one side kicking up more than the other it may be a twist of some kind  - maybe worth having a pro look at it and advise?

ICBM

ghostwhistler said:

Ok, i'll try setting the neck, but i don't have a guage to measure that fine a width, is there any substitute? I was using a credit card as suggested elsewhere. All i've got is a tape measure that goes 1/32 of an inch.

I never measure anything normally. Everything you need to know can be done with eyes, fingers and ears.

Essentially all you're trying to do is get the nut to the same height as the first fret (plus a tiny bit for safety), the neck as close as possible to dead straight without it buzzing in the low positions, and the bridge as low or high as gives a reasonable action in the upper positions.

It does get more complicated if the fretting is uneven or the neck is twisted though, which it sounds like it may be.

Maynehead

ghostwhistler said:

Ok, i'll try setting the neck, but i don't have a guage to measure that fine a width, is there any substitute? I was using a credit card as suggested elsewhere. All i've got is a tape measure that goes 1/32 of an inch.

By the way, are you sure a credit card was suggested and not a business card? A credit card is around 0.030" which is far too much relief, whereas a business card is around 0.0118", which is pretty much the standard 0.012" guideline relief.

ghostwhistler

I've seen both a credit card and a business card suggested from variuos sources. I'll try to lower the relief accordingly and see what happens. I don't know if the neck is twisted. It could be. Is there any way to tell because it's not apparent to my untrained eye. I can take it to the shop I bought it from, but not for a while so I want to see if i can resolve this myself. Of course it's entirely possible that I can't, which is a shame.

 I did speak to one guy, as I mentioned, who gave me a .46mm pick after demonstrating a simple test of string height. He said that on any guitar or bass it should be possible to insert that pick between the first fret and the string and have it remain in place. Since i've already started to tighten the truss rod, that's no longer possible. One of the problems I have had is seeing conflicting advice across the internet. As an amateur i have no way to discern truth from ignorance. So when you say a business card should fit between strings and 8th fret when testing relief, does that mean the card should remain in place likewise? At these measurements it's hard to tell.

Maynehead

Everyone has their own way of doing things, but some ways are more scientific and consistent than others. For example, the "pick under the first fret" trick is affected by 3 separate variables (nut height, relief, string action) and you cannot objectively tell which one of those is the problem, whereas fretting the 3rd fret and measuring the gap at the 1st eliminates 2 of the variables (relief, string action), thus is a much more objective way of testing nut height.

When measuring gaps with feeler gauges (or business cards), ideally what you'd like to achieve is a perfect fit. If the measuring tool is being held in place by the string, that could be a sign of to too little relief, as the string is being displaced when the measure is inserted.

What I usually do is tap down on the part of the string right above the feeler gauge with my finger, and make sure there is no movement of the string. even with a small gap you should be able to hear a click as the string hits the feeler gauge. So start off with a higher relief than ideal, then gradually lower it until the string no longer moves using the technique above, then you should be close to a perfect fit.

As for who to trust, that is not an easy question to answer, as like I say, everyone has their own way of doing things. It's a matter of analysing what people say and seeing if it makes sense to you. But generally, I think we're a very knowledgeable and experienced bunch on this forum and you won't do too badly by going with the suggestions here.