Playing festivals - Soundcheck woes for a newbie.

ICBM

Cirrus said:

And the difference between both of you and me is, I'd have taken a combo.

So would I, actually. Might not work so well for the sort of music Drew plays though.

John_P said:

Or just lift the top cab down.    Probably an empty one just to look "cool" anyway.

Unlikely, if plugging into it makes a noise .

John_P

^ oops. Good point! 

Drew_TNBD

digitalscream said:

Drew_fx said:

ICBM said:

Drew_fx said:

The main reason I haven't enjoyed *any* of our festival appearances is because of the cabs on stage. They nearly always provide a full stack, so I end up plugging into the top cab and I end up stood in the beam of the cab for the entire slot, and it ruins my mood and my performance. After playing 4 or 5 of them and having the exact same experience each time, I would seriously consider using IEM's and a modeller for those kind of shows.

I would seriously consider plugging in to the bottom cab.



I prefer the 'top cab' sound, but if you don't, then don't do it if you have the choice...

Cable wasn't long enough!

...so put your amp at the side of the stack. Lateral thinking, man...

(literally)

I actually have a bit of a phobia about that. I don't like putting amps on their side. But IC is totally right, should've just made a longer fucking cable! Thing is though... they're providing cabs.... why don't they think that extra step ahead and ALSO PROVIDE THE FUCKING CABLES!

ICBM

Drew_fx said:

Thing is though... they're providing cabs.... why don't they think that extra step ahead and ALSO PROVIDE THE FUCKING CABLES!

Probably because they just assume the bands will nick them. This used to be a big problem in a some rehearsal rooms I do service work for, until I suggested they hardwire the cables into the cabs.

thomasross20

How did they hardwire them? Solder!?

Drew_TNBD

ICBM said:

Drew_fx said:

Thing is though... they're providing cabs.... why don't they think that extra step ahead and ALSO PROVIDE THE FUCKING CABLES!

Probably because they just assume the bands will nick them. This used to be a big problem in a some rehearsal rooms I do service work for, until I suggested they hardwire the cables into the cabs.

The rehearsal room near me (which we don't go to anymore) used to screw amp heads to cabs and power-cables and speaker cables too. Drove us all fucking batty because they had these tiny little shit solid state amps that our big valve amps couldn't sit on top of without risk of falling off, and the cables would never reach so we'd end up unplugging them anyway.

ICBM

thomasross20 said:

How did they hardwire them? Solder!?

Yes - remove the jack, fit a metre or so of cable through the hole with a big knot on the inside so it can't be pulled out, and solder it directly to the speakers. That guarantees two things - no-one can steal the cable, and no-one can use a guitar lead instead.

Drew_fx said:

The rehearsal room near me (which we don't go to anymore) used to screw amp heads to cabs and power-cables and speaker cables too. Drove us all fucking batty because they had these tiny little shit solid state amps that our big valve amps couldn't sit on top of without risk of falling off, and the cables would never reach so we'd end up unplugging them anyway.

Sounds like the right idea but the wrong implementation. It's sad what they have to do to stop people wrecking the gear though… provided backline for festivals is similar, probably.

Drew_TNBD

ICBM said:

thomasross20 said:

How did they hardwire them? Solder!?

Yes - remove the jack, fit a metre or so of cable through the hole with a big knot on the inside so it can't be pulled out, and solder it directly to the speakers. That guarantees two things - no-one can steal the cable, and no-one can use a guitar lead instead.

Drew_fx said:

The rehearsal room near me (which we don't go to anymore) used to screw amp heads to cabs and power-cables and speaker cables too. Drove us all fucking batty because they had these tiny little shit solid state amps that our big valve amps couldn't sit on top of without risk of falling off, and the cables would never reach so we'd end up unplugging them anyway.

Sounds like the right idea but the wrong implementation. It's sad what they have to do to stop people wrecking the gear though… provided backline for festivals is similar, probably.

The thing is, the gear is already wrecked. It's all gotta be at least 15 years old. The rooms are proper manky sweat boxes full of mould and awful black sooty shit everywhere. They sound gash too, we only went there coz it was close and cheap.

The PA for instance - one of the IEC cables was split, bare wire on display. You'd get mains voltage going through your nutsack if you touched it. I reported it to them, and it was still like that months later - probably still is! Haven't been up there for a while.

It was Mill Hill Music Complex here in London and it's a fucking dive. Rattly shit bass cabs that never got fixed, drum kits that were falling apart, etc...

PolarityMan

We take all our own fear apart from PA. in the past when we rehearsed somewhere worse we took our pa too

Modellista

Ché said:

Sounddude: "Guitar, please"
Me - Strums one minor 7th chord set clean.
Sounddude: That's great thanks, keys next.

Erm, nope.

Me - Turns on distortion wah and delay and wails some high notes.

Now you have the full spectrum and amplitude of my sound.

Many sound guys who are guitarists (or empathetic to a band) will most likely ask if you're using any other settings to cycle through them, most, as was the case at the festival I played, do not. I know they're on a tight schedule but if you're not happy with you're sound you won't play well, and if you don't enjoy playing why bother?

The amount of times I've switched to a lead tone only to be lost in the mix and have to faff around with levels mid song I'd rather know I'm good from the start. Plus it looks (and sounds) unprofessional (if that's important to you).

I've also learnt never to expect monitors, let alone a decent monitor mix, so I normally put my amp on a stand near me as a faux monitor just to hear what I'm playing.

Genuine question - why do you get lost in the mix when you switch to your lead tone in a gig environment, but presumably not in rehearsal?  When the sound man asks for your guitar, he's checking it's working and getting a level.  I may be reading it wrong here but are you expecting him to keep changing your PA settings throughout the set? I doubt he's going to be continuously riding the fader during the performance, so isn't it the guitarist's responsibility to make sure the changes in level and tone are appropriate for the material, and not to expect the sound man to fix it?

PolarityMan

Unless they've fired it through a compressor in which case all the boosting in the world isn't going to give you what you want and the sound guy will have to sort out the solos.

ICBM

I would never expect the soundman to ride the fader, or even to adjust anything once your channel is set. All the changes must come from what you do.

Generally getting a solo to cut through is more about frequency separation and dynamics with the other instruments than it is about outright level, so it shouldn't be too much of an issue if you've got your sounds right.

Danny1969

When mixing live you generally ride the vocal fader and the backing vox  ..... but I will boost the guy doing a solo if he doesn't have a boost and if there's a second guitarist I will dip him at the same time. When playing in my own bands I don't use any kind of boost, the sound guy turns me for solo's. 

I played another festival on saturday, 10K worth of HK bins and tops, 5K worth of stage .... no one mixing monitors again .....

 

ICBM

Danny1969 said:

When mixing live you generally ride the vocal fader and the backing vox  ..... but I will boost the guy doing a solo if he doesn't have a boost and if there's a second guitarist I will dip him at the same time.

*You* do, yes . But that's because you care and you know why it might help, being also a guitarist.

Most soundmen, er… don't. Some of them don't even seem to be aware that the guitarist might be playing a solo, let alone do anything with it.

EricTheWeary

In fairness to sound men it's very hard to boost the solos and chat someone up at the bar simultaneously.

ICBM said:

Danny1969 said:

When mixing live you generally ride the vocal fader and the backing vox  ..... but I will boost the guy doing a solo if he doesn't have a boost and if there's a second guitarist I will dip him at the same time.

*You* do, yes . But that's because you care and you know why it might help, being also a guitarist.

Most soundmen, er… don't. Some of them don't even seem to be aware that the guitarist might be playing a solo, let alone do anything with it.

Catthan

There's a common piece of advise here in the lines of "know your shit and be able to play with bad sound-hearing little or nowt of yourself etc". That's all good but, in that case pls remember to check your tuning every now and then. 

Also, if you can't hear a bandmate, say keys, you need to assume that they are playing they're parts as arranged; don't try to compensate because it doesn't sound right on your monitor mix or lack thereof.
Same goes for the opposite, it you can hear everyone else loud and busy, don't place less to make space and clear things out.
If you're hearing yourself too loud on the monitor, don't soften your pick attack or drop your rig's volume. This will affect the FOH. Ask (if you can) for less you in the mix or try to tolerate it..  
These things may read as common sense but I've seen-heard people trying to compensate thinking they're improving a bad stage sound situation but ultimately make the FOH guy's job harder..

What I see pros do is deal with such problems in style. No panic, they don't stop playing looking lost, they don't start messing with their rig mid-song, their hand gestures to the sound techs are clear and minimal and assertive (they don't get into an argument with the tech about why bass is low waving their hands like idiots).
Pros usually (or hopefully) get to play with better/ more techs but there's not more you can do anyway.. 

mike257

Dave_Vader said:

This - very much this. All the decent festivals I've played have been crewed by competent guys who you don't even need to ask to change stuff much.
Whereas, conversely, all the village fetes that call themselves festivals now are crewed by a bloke from the pub who owns a desk and some big speakers. He is there to talk to girls, don't expect a lot of help.

Absolutely this.  Weekend warriors exist in the sound engineering world too!  A business partner and I quoted for production for a small local festival recently, told it was an expected crowd of ~1000 on a 50 metre square site and they wanted to go for a high standard of production and make it a 'proper' event, and were looking at spending some money on a decent headline act so we'd need to be up to scratch.  

We did a site survey, looked at environmental issues, access issues, put together a proposal and a reasonably priced package with a Prolite Arc Roof stage, a fair stack of subs and a few small line array boxes each side, standard four way monitor rig, digital desk, full backline.  Ended up getting knocked back after a few weeks of back and forth because they got "a cheaper quote".  Saw some photos from the event and they had a pair of 15" tops on a pair of single 18" subs, a couple of pieces of steeldeck staging with a gazebo on top, the two smallest wedges I've ever seen at outside corners of the stage, red and white roadworks fencing for barriers and a drum kit straight from the Argos catalogue.  I take a bigger rig to every wedding gig I play.  God knows what it sounded like halfway down the field.

ESBlonde

Regarding solo boost. Not every sound engineer know every song in every genre, and if the did whats to say your arrangements match! Like I said earlier, play as a unit so you can hear everything at a lowish volume and self mix. Nearly every sound man can work that and enhance with separation and judicious effects. Being an arrogant rock star does you no favour's amount the pros.

slacker

I always soundcheck my boost volume (or offer to do so). In most cases the sound guy is fine with that.

ICBM

mike257 said:

We did a site survey, looked at environmental issues, access issues, put together a proposal and a reasonably priced package with a Prolite Arc Roof stage, a fair stack of subs and a few small line array boxes each side, standard four way monitor rig, digital desk, full backline.  Ended up getting knocked back after a few weeks of back and forth because they got "a cheaper quote".  Saw some photos from the event and they had a pair of 15" tops on a pair of single 18" subs, a couple of pieces of steeldeck staging with a gazebo on top, the two smallest wedges I've ever seen at outside corners of the stage, red and white roadworks fencing for barriers and a drum kit straight from the Argos catalogue.  I take a bigger rig to every wedding gig I play.  God knows what it sounded like halfway down the field.

Sounds familiar. A few years ago a local outdoor "community festival" asked whether I would help them with their PA - and I refused to have anything to do with it, because I knew the utter chaos that would ensue no matter what I did, leaving me with the blame - had "hired a PA" from a local music shop. A 150W mixer box and two 1x12" cabs…

They had also hired backline from someone I know who does that - a couple of big guitar amps and a bass amp, I can't remember what but probably in the 50-100W and 300-500W ranges - which they would probably have been better off using *as* the PA .

The final problem was that after they had got it more or less set up, the first band soundchecked and about halfway through the first chord when they were all playing, the hired generator cut out - because no-one understood that a 300W caravan generator is never going to be enough even for that minimal set-up.

The backline chap then managed to find a 1KW job from somewhere which was just about enough, although he had to faff around to sort it all out… and unsurprisingly, was not paid extra for it.