blues scale for 4th chord

finest1

hi all,

im studying the blues at the moment. i understand the scales and the chords but when i go to the 4th chord, the scales just don't sound "right" although theoretically i am using the right scales.  im wondering how you approach the chord.

octatonic

Which blues progression?

John_P

I probably try to use target notes based on the chord and texture I'm aiming for as well as the blues scale from that key.  

What scales are you using?   

finest1

octatonic said:

Which blues progression?

12 bar blues

finest1

John_P said:

I probably try to use target notes based on the chord and texture I'm aiming for as well as the blues scale from that key.  

What scales are you using?   

pentatonic
pentatonic blues
started to experiment with major blues

octatonic

finest1 said:

octatonic said:

Which blues progression?

12 bar blues

Yes, I know that.
Is it a minor blues, a dominant blues, a major blues progression with a dominant V chord?

I suggest you look at targeting chord tones too.

Brad

If you're doing a dominant blues you can try the 'minor 6 pentatonic' over the IV chord. It's just the minor pentatonic but replacing the b7 with the 6th. In the key of A...

Minor Pent - A C D E G
Minor 6 Pent - A C D E F#

There are a few options but this will enable you to outline the IV chord (D9 sound) whilst staying in a familiar pentatonic land. Robben Ford uses this a lot. 

octatonic

Brad said:

If you're doing a dominant blues you can try the 'minor 6 pentatonic' over the IV chord. It's just the minor pentatonic but replacing the b7 with the 6th. In the key of A...

Minor Pent - A C D E G
Minor 6 Pent - A C D E F#

There are a few options but this will enable you to outline the IV chord (D9 sound) whilst staying in a familiar pentatonic land. Robben Ford uses this a lot. 

Good suggestion.
I think off this as selecting notes from the Dorian mode.

benmurray85

you're miles ahead of me. I was sat here thinking theres only three chords in a 12 bar blues.

octatonic

benmurray85 said:

you're miles ahead of me. I was sat here thinking theres only three chords in a 12 bar blues.

There are loads of different blues progressions.

For example:

I IV V
I IV V7
I7 IV7 V7

Also every time you see a dominant you can play a ii7 V7.

A bop blues progression, with some substitutions could be this:

I7

IV7

I7

v7 I7

IV7

♯IVo7

I7

V/ii♭9

ii7

V7

I7 V/ii♭9

ii7 V7

Brad

octatonic said:

Brad said:

If you're doing a dominant blues you can try the 'minor 6 pentatonic' over the IV chord. It's just the minor pentatonic but replacing the b7 with the 6th. In the key of A...

Minor Pent - A C D E G
Minor 6 Pent - A C D E F#

There are a few options but this will enable you to outline the IV chord (D9 sound) whilst staying in a familiar pentatonic land. Robben Ford uses this a lot. 

Good suggestion.
I think off this as selecting notes from the Dorian mode.

It always interests me how the same information can be viewed/applied differently. 

finest1

octatonic said:

finest1 said:

octatonic said:

Which blues progression?

12 bar blues

Yes, I know that.
Is it a minor blues, a dominant blues, a major blues progression with a dominant V chord?

I suggest you look at targeting chord tones too.

not minor blues

chord progression for example

A7
D7 or D9
E7 or E9

octatonic

Ok, so a dominant blues.
You have a few options.
The scale or mode that fits best is the D Mixolydian but running the up and down a scale will get boring quite quickly.
Look at playing phrases that incorporate the major 3rd and flat 7 of the D chord on the down beats of the IV bars arriving at an exit point that has a root, 3rd or flat 7 of the next chord.

So a IV -> V movement target F# and C arriving at a E, G# or D.
So for a IV -> I, target F# and C arriving at an A, C# or G.
Phrasing is everything here.

You can also play the A harmonic minor over the IV chord.
A harmonic minor: A B C D E F, G#, A.
It gives you a clash against the D7's 3rd but it will work, the same way you get a 'nice' clash playing the minor pentatonic  over a major chord. It helps if you play the f a little bit sharp.

Or the A melodic minor: A B C D E F# G# A: Here you have no clash against the D7's 3rd: F#.
Both these make a nice transition to the V chord where you can play an F melodic minor over the E7.

Or just a D major pentatonic. If you only know minor then play B minor pent over D7.

stratman3142

octatonic said:

Ok, so a dominant blues.
You have a few options.
The scale or mode that fits best is the D Mixolydian but running the up and down a scale will get boring quite quickly.
Look at playing phrases that incorporate the major 3rd and flat 7 of the D chord on the down beats of the IV bars arriving at an exit point that has a root, 3rd or flat 7 of the next chord.

So a IV -> V movement target F# and C arriving at a E, G# or D.
So for a IV -> I, target F# and C arriving at an A, C# or G.
Phrasing is everything here.

You can a,so play the A melodic minor over the IV chord.
A melodic minor: A B C D E F, G#, A.
It gives you a clash against the D7's 3rd but it will work, the same way you get a 'nice' clash playing the minor pentatonic  over a major chord. It helps if you play the f a little bit sharp.

Or just a D major pentatonic. If you only know minor then play B minor pent over D7.

I think you mean A harmonic minor for A B C D E F G# A. Sorry I'm being an anorak again. But I take your point.

I might play a G# against D but, at that point, I probably wouldn't be thinking scales, but more in terms of adding a b5 to a D7 arpeggio. I might think in terms of a combination of an A melodic minor (ascending) and a straight A major over the V7 (E7), as that obviously contains the G# as a major 3rd of E7.

As has been said in an earlier post by @Brad it's very interesting how the same information can be viewed and applied differently. I'm sure that different musicians use different approaches to arrive at what is essentially the same thing. Even within my own playing, I like to look at the same thing from multiple viewpoints. Maybe that topic merits a thread in its own right.

Brad

I'm assuming that is just a typo by @octatonic and he meant F# instead of F as mode 4 of the A melodic minor is D Lydian Dominant, which works over the IV chord. 

Edit: Ignore, I just re-read his post. I'll leave for him to clarify. 

octatonic

stratman3142 said:

octatonic said:

Ok, so a dominant blues.
You have a few options.
The scale or mode that fits best is the D Mixolydian but running the up and down a scale will get boring quite quickly.
Look at playing phrases that incorporate the major 3rd and flat 7 of the D chord on the down beats of the IV bars arriving at an exit point that has a root, 3rd or flat 7 of the next chord.

So a IV -> V movement target F# and C arriving at a E, G# or D.
So for a IV -> I, target F# and C arriving at an A, C# or G.
Phrasing is everything here.

You can a,so play the A melodic minor over the IV chord.
A melodic minor: A B C D E F, G#, A.
It gives you a clash against the D7's 3rd but it will work, the same way you get a 'nice' clash playing the minor pentatonic  over a major chord. It helps if you play the f a little bit sharp.

Or just a D major pentatonic. If you only know minor then play B minor pent over D7.

I think you mean A harmonic minor for A B C D E F G# A. Sorry I'm being an anorak again. But I take your point.

I might play a G# against D but, at that point, I probably wouldn't be thinking scales, but more in terms of adding a b5 to a D7 arpeggio. I might think in terms of a combination of an A melodic minor (ascending) and a straight A major over the V7 (E7), as that obviously contains the G# as a major 3rd of E7.

As has been said in an earlier post by @Brad it's very interesting how the same information can be viewed and applied differently. I'm sure that different musicians use different approaches to arrive at what is essentially the same thing. Even within my own playing, I like to look at the same thing from multiple viewpoints. Maybe that topic merits a thread in its own right.

Gah, I was posting on iPad early in the morning- yes, Harmonic minor.
I was got fed up with struggling with the iPad and intended to edit once I got up but got busy and forgot about the post.
I've edited my post to reflect what I wanted to say, fixed typo's etc.

stratman3142

finest1 said:

John_P said:

I probably try to use target notes based on the chord and texture I'm aiming for as well as the blues scale from that key.  

What scales are you using?   

pentatonic
pentatonic blues
started to experiment with major blues

Assuming you're playing the chord progression you posted earlier
A7
D7 or D9
E7 or E9

I would have thought an A minor pentatonic would also work over the D7. There'd be a problem sticking with A major pentatonic over D7 because you'll have a C# clashing with a C in the D7 chord, so you'd have to be careful with your note choices.

One way to approach these things is to listen to how other players apply the scales. I've always seen the Clapton solo to Crossroads as a masterpiece in blues rock soloing and there's a good tutorial in the clip below. You can try more exotic things if you want it to sound a bit Jazzier.

newi123

Well worth reading this Carl Verheyen article about your options here:

http://www.guitarplayer.com/guitar-player-101/1025/the-four-levels-of-the-blues/49191

Jalapeno

For a beginner soloing 1 4 5 dominant 12bar, you can stick to the single blues scale throughout, with root on the 1 chord.

They'll all fit in, but some notes will sound better than others over each chord, use your ear for that. Learn the fingering above and below, so you don't get stuck in the same blues box pattern and can slide in & out.

In time to come though it'll be hard NOT to do this approach  

Varying the approach is what all that ^^^^ is about !

finest1

thanks for all your comments and suggestions. i will give them all a try. please feel free to add more ideas

octatonic

newi123 said:

Well worth reading this Carl Verheyen article about your options here:

http://www.guitarplayer.com/guitar-player-101/1025/the-four-levels-of-the-blues/49191

That is excellent.