When would you ever use the full power of a high powered amp?

impmann

Well, I guess it really depends on what sort of music you are playing too. Years ago I used to borrow a non mv Marshall 100w head that I'd crank through a 4x12... That was a sleazy, GnR type rock band. And we were too loud.
In the 90s I ran early 60s ac30s, two of them but not flat out. I ran them at a volume that crated those lovely harmonics but was a fairly clean sound and then used a booster to drive them harder. Indie style Brit pop and all that. And we were too loud.
Yes amps have volume controls but 1) not all of them work terribly well (hot rod deluxe for example and 2) IMHO very few high powered amps sound great at lower power levels, as the power valves are not influencing the harmonic content as much as they do when the volume is up. And therefore most if what you are hearing is pre amp distortion - which is where fizz comes in or boom in the case of boogies/Mesas (sorry I don't like guitar tones that interfere with the bass player's frequencies).
Modern PAs mean that you can bring on stage volumes down, yet still keep the energy. This gives far better front of house sounds AND you get to keep you hearing - very important to me.
So I really, really can't see the point of big high powered valve amps any more. The only reason they existed was because of poor PAs and the need for a blasting back line. The world has changed since then, for the better IMHO.

Danny1969

impmann said:

Well, I guess it really depends on what sort of music you are playing too. Years ago I used to borrow a non mv Marshall 100w head that I'd crank through a 4x12... That was a sleazy, GnR type rock band. And we were too loud.
In the 90s I ran early 60s ac30s, two of them but not flat out. I ran them at a volume that crated those lovely harmonics but was a fairly clean sound and then used a booster to drive them harder. Indie style Brit pop and all that. And we were too loud.
Yes amps have volume controls but 1) not all of them work terribly well (hot rod deluxe for example and 2) IMHO very few high powered amps sound great at lower power levels, as the power valves are not influencing the harmonic content as much as they do when the volume is up. And therefore most if what you are hearing is pre amp distortion - which is where fizz comes in or boom in the case of boogies/Mesas (sorry I don't like guitar tones that interfere with the bass player's frequencies).
Modern PAs mean that you can bring on stage volumes down, yet still keep the energy. This gives far better front of house sounds AND you get to keep you hearing - very important to me.
So I really, really can't see the point of big high powered valve amps any more. The only reason they existed was because of poor PAs and the need for a blasting back line. The world has changed since then, for the better IMHO.

Amen to all that, as a guitarist and an FOH engineer I agree completely 

ICBM

Richardj said:

Remember the Guitarist test where a cranked Fender HRD had more db volume than a cranked 100w Marshall head and 4x12?

Which was bollocks, because they weren't measuring it correctly.

martinw said:

I agree, but there's 2 things I'd add. Firstly, obviously not everybody wants that 'authority' or directness, or immediacy, or however it's described. But then that's a given that we all have different tastes, and different musical styles.

Agreed. But so many people who don't seem to want the 'authority' have a real blind spot about understanding why some people do, which seems to be much less true the other way round. I use and like small amps too, and I would never say someone is doing anything wrong if they get the sound they want that way... but you very often hear things like "no-one ever needs more than 20W these days, because it's easily loud enough for any gig - if not you just mic up". Totally missing the point. It's about tone, not volume.

martinw said:

The other thing is though that I'm not sure it's the power output per se that gives those qualities. I think the incidental effects of having a stiffer power supply and bigger output transformer are doing some of the things you describe. So, if you were to build a lower power amp (say 20-30W) with a larger, hi-fi style OT, and stiff power supply, and a lowish gain preamp, you get some of the same qualities of punch and authority.

It's not the power supply stiffness - if anything it's the other way round, Mesa Rectifiers have *more* authority when you're using the valve rectifier than the solid-state... there's a softer 'weight' behind the sound which is not the same as the sharper, harder attack you get with a stiffer supply. You need a big amp to give that combination... I think the size of the transformers may have a lot to do with it, since really all you're doing by building a low-powered amp with oversized transformers is running a powerful amp turned down. 

This is why power scaling works well, as you know . Although personally I prefer attenuation since it makes the power supply work harder and you still get the softness and heaviness.

impmann and Danny - I totally agree about using appropriate stage levels. But that still does *not* mean that a low-powered amp will do the job. I'm happy to use attenuation if the sound I want with a big amp is too loud for the room. That sounds far better to me than using a smaller amp.

guitarfishbay

I'm not a bellend with stage volume and will set it where I'm told to, I don't really get 'crankxiety' so long as I have some way of hearing myself. But I'm only shifting from my high wattage multi channel amps when I'm happy to buy a digital emulation of the same.

No low wattage amps have anywhere near the features of my Mesa Roadster, and more to the point none of them that I've heard sound as good. As far as I'm concerned it is that halfstack or an Axe/Kemper rig modelling the same.

To me the low wattage amps are false economy - less options, possibly not enough clean headroom for unmic'd rehearsals (where the drummer plays at full effort level) and often a smaller sound when recorded (which I don't want). But those are just my needs. To me a high wattage multi channel amp does it all - all the options I want at any volume I could possibly need.

So to me, it is high wattage or direct. Low wattage valve amps are poorer value for me because there just aren't the options available for what I want in one package.

koneguitarist

I have used big amps, and do love a twin reverb, not cranked but upto about 5-6 on volume. Small amps often sound great, and over last 10 years or so, lots of companies are making quality low powered amps. Low power does not mean low quality or lack of features or tone, neither does high power mean quality and more features. Use what works for you. Point is with the advent of quality PA systems and a sound engineer, you may prefer a loud high power amp, but you generally don't need one anymore. I watched Jim Campilongo use a 12w Princeton and he has tone and all the control he needs, and sound engineers can give you that same sound through a big system. Only downside is when playing smaller pubs rammed full of people that's when the Marshall 50w head can get cranked and sound so much better, as the audience is right on top of you and the PA cannot give you what you need etc.

Dave_Mc

ICBM said:

martinw said:

I agree, but there's 2 things I'd add. Firstly, obviously not everybody wants that 'authority' or directness, or immediacy, or however it's described. But then that's a given that we all have different tastes, and different musical styles.

Agreed. But so many people who don't seem to want the 'authority' have a real blind spot about understanding why some people do, which seems to be much less true the other way round. I use and like small amps too, and I would never say someone is doing anything wrong if they get the sound they want that way... but you very often hear things like "no-one ever needs more than 20W these days, because it's easily loud enough for any gig - if not you just mic up". Totally missing the point. It's about tone, not volume.

Agreed. They seem to confuse "I don't need it" with "That means no-one needs it." I have small amps too and I like them too- for certain things.

koneguitarist

Dave_Mc">Agreed. They seem to confuse "I don't need it" with "That means no-one needs it." I have small amps too and I like them too- for certain things.

Oh sometimes some people think only a big can do it as it's',,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, bigger ! When you mic up on stage you mic a speaker, note, A speaker, does it matter if it's a 10w amp driving it or a 100w, the design is what's important not the size.

Dave_Mc

Oh yeah you also have the "I need 6000 watts as i'm gigging" brigade as well )

NervousJohn

I gig with an old AC-30 set to somewhere between loud and jings, that's loud, but then manage the volume with the knob on the guitar (as opposed to the knob playing the guitar).

Obviously this cleans the sound up a bit but I'm getting a good sound and can adjust as I need to. Works for me at least.

SimonC

NervousJohn said:

I gig with an old AC-30 set to somewhere between loud and jings, that's loud, but then manage the volume with the knob on the guitar (as opposed to the knob playing the guitar).

Obviously this cleans the sound up a bit but I'm getting a good sound and can adjust as I need to. Works for me at least.

I would agree with this. I think running the amp fairly loud and backing off at the guitar sounds much better to my ears than turning down at the amp.

 The tone just seems to "breathe" a bit more that way.

impmann

Each time I've engineered FOH recently, I've had to deal with a egomaniac with a 100w amp, who won't/"can't" turn down and so maybe he has had a great gig, the rest of the band and the audience haven't had such a great time.
And this idea of 'authority' - erm, well, if the engineer can't give your tone 'authority' out front with 4k of power, then they aren't much cop! And in that scenario, truly a 100w amp blazing away is a waste of time in a pub. All you'll do is have a great personal tone on stage that the engineer cannot control - and no matter how good you *think* you are at controlling your sound/volume a good engineer will do it better for everyone. And remember that it isn't all about your guitar... ;-)
But as has been said - if you like that sound and no-one is complaining to you, then all is well. Either that or they are too scared of the argument if they do challenge you! Frankly, I've given up arguing with one of these guys - and so I mix the band and he doesn't come through FOH. The band know this but are too scared of broaching it with the guitarist...
So if you *think* this issue doesn't affect you, it may be because no-one wants to have the row with you.... :-)

ICBM

impmann said:

Each time I've engineered FOH recently, I've had to deal with a egomaniac with a 100w amp, who won't/"can't" turn down and so maybe he has had a great gig, the rest of the band and the audience haven't had such a great time.
And this idea of 'authority' - erm, well, if the engineer can't give your tone 'authority' out front with 4k of power, then they aren't much cop! And in that scenario, truly a 100w amp blazing away is a waste of time in a pub. All you'll do is have a great personal tone on stage that the engineer cannot control - and no matter how good you *think* you are at controlling your sound/volume a good engineer will do it better for everyone. And remember that it isn't all about your guitar... ;-)
But as has been said - if you like that sound and no-one is complaining to you, then all is well. Either that or they are too scared of the argument if they do challenge you! Frankly, I've given up arguing with one of these guys - and so I mix the band and he doesn't come through FOH. The band know this but are too scared of broaching it with the guitarist...
So if you *think* this issue doesn't affect you, it may be because no-one wants to have the row with you.... :-)

Unlikely… I'm only a little guy .

Anyway, I do *always* accept instructions regarding volume, either from the soundman or audience members who might be at the soundcheck. Why would you not? The band mix is *always* more important than your personal tone - unless you really are an egomanic and an idiot to boot, since your playing won't sound as good if it's too loud for the mix.

So I agree and disagree.

In fact, I find it much easier to simply turn down a big amp and keep the same tone - if it was running below the point of power-stage distortion before (it will be) and is now still above the point it starts to sound really crap (it will be unless the MV taper is really poor) then turning down the volume does just that… it's *small* amps where the tone drastically changes from cranked-and-good to not-cranked-and-no-good, if you're relying on the power stage overdriving.

A player with a small - especially non-MV - valve amp who needs to crank it to get "his" tone and doesn't believe that it will be too loud because "it's only 15W" and even more so if they don't realise how directional it is, is far more of a nuisance in my experience.

And (do I really have to say this again…) 'authority' is not about power, it's about tone. You do tend to need a big amp to get it, but a big amp can have authority while playing at a *lower* volume than a small amp which doesn't. 

All of the above is *why* I use a big amp - the whole point (apart from it just sounding better than a small amp) is that it sounds pretty much exactly the same from about 5W to about 50W, so I don't need to worry about not being able to get my tone at the right volume - I suppose if you've only ever heard idiots who insist on cranking the amp whatever the power, you might not understand that. But one does not follow from the other.

koneguitarist

Excellent Impmann.

I did a club gig years ago to about 600 people rammed right up towards band.

I was mic`d up with a 40 sf Vibrolux, every time I brought guitar volume up for a solo, engineer dropped me out of mix, didn`t seem loud where I was.

Another classic example was me using a Marshall 25/50 1x12" combo, at an open air festival, Sound engineer was directly in front of band about 100` away. we have a recording straight off the desk, and apart from first 30 seconds or so, there is no electric guitar in the mix at all.

Since then I have started to use smaller amps and have better results than with big amps, even though a part of me still wants that big tone onstage, its out front that counts.

guitarfishbay

ICBM said:

impmann said:

Each time I've engineered FOH recently, I've had to deal with a egomaniac with a 100w amp, who won't/"can't" turn down and so maybe he has had a great gig, the rest of the band and the audience haven't had such a great time.
And this idea of 'authority' - erm, well, if the engineer can't give your tone 'authority' out front with 4k of power, then they aren't much cop! And in that scenario, truly a 100w amp blazing away is a waste of time in a pub. All you'll do is have a great personal tone on stage that the engineer cannot control - and no matter how good you *think* you are at controlling your sound/volume a good engineer will do it better for everyone. And remember that it isn't all about your guitar... ;-)
But as has been said - if you like that sound and no-one is complaining to you, then all is well. Either that or they are too scared of the argument if they do challenge you! Frankly, I've given up arguing with one of these guys - and so I mix the band and he doesn't come through FOH. The band know this but are too scared of broaching it with the guitarist...
So if you *think* this issue doesn't affect you, it may be because no-one wants to have the row with you.... :-)

Unlikely… I'm only a little guy .

Anyway, I do *always* accept instructions regarding volume, either from the soundman or audience members who might be at the soundcheck. Why would you not? The band mix is *always* more important than your personal tone - unless you really are an egomanic and an idiot to boot, since your playing won't sound as good if it's too loud for the mix.

So I agree and disagree.

In fact, I find it much easier to simply turn down a big amp and keep the same tone - if it was running below the point of power-stage distortion before (it will be) and is now still above the point it starts to sound really crap (it will be unless the MV taper is really poor) then turning down the volume does just that… it's *small* amps where the tone drastically changes from cranked-and-good to not-cranked-and-no-good, if you're relying on the power stage overdriving.

A player with a small - especially non-MV - valve amp who needs to crank it to get "his" tone and doesn't believe that it will be too loud because "it's only 15W" and even more so if they don't realise how directional it is, is far more of a nuisance in my experience.

And (do I really have to say this again…) 'authority' is not about power, it's about tone. You do tend to need a big amp to get it, but a big amp can have authority while playing at a *lower* volume than a small amp which doesn't. 

All of the above is *why* I use a big amp - the whole point (apart from it just sounding better than a small amp) is that it sounds pretty much exactly the same from about 5W to about 50W, so I don't need to worry about not being able to get my tone at the right volume - I suppose if you've only ever heard idiots who insist on cranking the amp whatever the power, you might not understand that. But one does not follow from the other.

I agree with ICBM. I don't have much more to add, I find the wattage debate pretty boring when it is people just saying 'volume' - we're all on the same page.  If you needed the features of a multi channel high wattage head you'd understand.  I do, I use all the modes and all of the channels of my amp for recording, and I use 4 channels and the dual master for my live set with my band.  There isn't a low wattage equivalent.  So like i said before either I use it, or I get a digital emulation and go direct (can't afford this route yet without selling my Mesa rig - I want to own both..), I don't see how a low wattage amp would be any use to me - they just don't make any with the features I want and need.

koneguitarist

I think we are gettin a little far from OP question when would you ever use full power in other words max'd not just warmed so it's working well. For what sit worth I have never max'd an amp up on a gig, no matter what size it was. Also for me I like simple amps with a cleanish tone, so smaller amps often suit me better. Big amps, small amps, all work in various environments, each better than the other in some cases.

ICBM

koneguitarist said:

I think we are gettin a little far from OP question when would you ever use full power in other words max'd not just warmed so it's working well. For what sit worth I have never max'd an amp up on a gig, no matter what size it was. Also for me I like simple amps with a cleanish tone, so smaller amps often suit me better. Big amps, small amps, all work in various environments, each better than the other in some cases.

Agreed - although I have maxed amps, for some gigs… always fairly small ones before you say anything . But I think it is very important to differentiate between *using the maximum power* of a high-powered amp to achieve a full clean sound, and actually turning it up all the way. A clean 100W amp may not actually be any louder than a cranked 20-watter, but if you require strict cleans then you're still using the full power of the 100W amp... for a fraction of a second at a time .

What really puzzles me is why so many people seem to have this blind spot about a powerful amp meaning that you have to be playing *loud*, the assumption being that it will be *too* loud. I've played a cranked 3W, 8" speaker tweed Champ unmic'ed and been asked to turn it down, and played a 100W amp and been told I was a bit too quiet. Which was too loud? The difference between the two was that the Champ *had* to be at that volume to get that sound. (I ended up using a pedal.) The 100W amp could be much louder, or even quieter, and sound just the same.

It only seems to be a guitar thing - does anyone tell a bass player he's going to be to loud when he shows up with a 500W amp?

impmann

Most rational people *do* listen to the engineer... Sadly, few are actually lead guitarists!!

ThePrettyDamned

I'd always trust the front of house.  Why? They're paid to make you sound good.  Don't piss them off.  They can, and will, make you sound like shit.

koneguitarist

Sometimes people do think you are loud due to gear you have, I turn up with a small amp, no on says a thing, I turn up with a marshall half stack, and they are tutting as I get it out of van ! and as ICBM says you can play louder with a small amp than with a large amp, Context is key.

What`s out front counts most though, if its too loud for audience then you are too loud

%-(

I once depped with a band in a small pub, 100w HH pa, and 50w type backline unmic`d, told to turn down all evening as sound quality was crap and even though it didn`t sound distorted it was, and very harsh.

Following week I played same venue with my band at the time, and we walked in with a 1500w Pa and small backline mic`d, because sound quality was good, no one mentioned volume. Context of the volume in the venue with gear used.

 

monquixote

ICBM said:

In fact, I find it much easier to simply turn down a big amp and keep the same tone - if it was running below the point of power-stage distortion before (it will be) and is now still above the point it starts to sound really crap (it will be unless the MV taper is really poor) then turning down the volume does just that… it's *small* amps where the tone drastically changes from cranked-and-good to not-cranked-and-no-good, if you're relying on the power stage overdriving.

Much wisdom here. 

If you are relying on an amp being cranked for your tone then you have a very narrow window of volumes available to you between sounding flat and sounding mushy. 

If you have an amp that sounds good at any volume (and plenty of amps do) then you can set it at the appropriate volume.