Vintage Vs Modern

IvisonGuitars

Here's an age old debate and I'm sure it's probably covered somewhere here, if not in length at the old place.

I'm in the position where I am currently able to invest in a vintage guitar (Gibson/Fender) - very much an investment but also a guitar that can be played regularly.

I appreciate that a desirable model of vintage guitar (from a respected dealer so I know it's going to be genuine or as genuine as it can be) can only be an investment....

So looking from the playing side of things:

Do I go for an all original vintage guitar?

Or is the vintage guitar thing just snake oil?

We know that early Fenders where built to a price (cheap as possible) and assembled on a production line and it's a similar story with Gibson. But then we all know how great some of these guitars sound.

I know there are some right old dogs out there and there are equally as many good vintage guitars around but are they any better/worse players than a new Custom Shop model or a luthier built guitar?

Would be interested to get some opinions :-)

lustycourtier

Been there, done it. I now have modern guitars.

guitarfishbay

Are you buying primarily for tone or to make money selling it later?

If you really want a good sounding instrument as a priority and you've got a big budget I'd strongly suggest going to a high end dealership that stocks the 'good stuff'. CS Fenders, Gibsons, Suhrs, PRS etc.

Play them all side by side and buy the one that is best to you. It is pretty likely that most people will find their dream guitar that way. If you can't - then you could look at custom builds - but personally I don't believe it necessarily means you'll get a guitar you'll love, just a well made one with the specs you wanted. I know I'm happier buying off the shelf so I know what I'm getting, but I have fairly conservative tastes and haven't had much success with custom builds or guitars ordered on specs.

If buying as in invesment do your research and appreciate prices can go down as well as up. If you buy a mint vintage piece and damage it or replace parts it may lose value etc. And you won't necessarily get a better sounding/playing instrument either, but you might.

ESBlonde

If you want the mojo, then a gibson with a repaired headstock gets you 'player grade' vintage without the silly price tag. As long as it remains a player it will always get your money back.

Old wood gets knocked by some and praised by others, all I can say is try each instrument yourself and evaluate it, that way you know. Do your homework and don't over pay.

Buying guitars as investments is dangerous, the fickle finger of fate will poke your eye out when fashions change and the younger generation decide 50s guitars aren't worth half a house values.

YMMV

ICBM

miserneil said:

Do I go for an all original vintage guitar?

If it's all-original it will be overpriced compared to one with some minor work done to it, and probably will have issues with frets, electrics etc either now or eventually, which you can't fix without "devaluing" it. You can get one that's all-original in the *important* areas - no woodwork repairs, original finish, possibly original pickups (although these can always be found later if missing) - for a lot less, and one that's been professionally refinished for even less. A refret should be an upgrade (although it isn't in value terms), but only if it's been done to the highest professional standard.

miserneil said:

Or is the vintage guitar thing just snake oil?

No, but some of it is. There is something in the "old wood" theory though I think - they just sound different from new guitars, in a way that doesn't seem quite possible to duplicate even with "ageing" processes. Sometimes that can make them sound great, sometimes it just makes them sound old…

miserneil said:

are they any better/worse players than a new Custom Shop model or a luthier built guitar?

Slightly different. Usually worse players and better-sounding, although it can go both ways...

crunchman

I think it depends ont eh individual guitar.  I've played a 50's Tele that was absolutely stunning.  I've not played another Tele like it, but I don't think all old ones are that good though.  I've played other old guitars that weren't anything special, and not as good as some new ones.

If you can find a really great old one then they are special, but I think you are better off with a good new one than a mediocre old one.  The new one will probably improve with age as well.

Monstronaut

All the vintage guitars I've owned have been player grade and I can highly recommend it. For me there is something in the wood and feel of vintage guitars that is special. I've not had/played one that has been a tone turd but had some that haven't sounded/played the way I want and usually a re-fret/set up/ possibly new pickups has been the answer. Here's my '62 ES-345, none of the parts are original but are all high quality repros(antiquities, pigtail etc) and it rings like a bastard. An absolute delight to play. It cost me a good chunk less than a reissue. 

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e10/humbucker2/1962 Gibson ES-345/IMG_0948_zps96f5aaab.jpg

bertie

guitarfishbay said:

Are you buying primarily for tone or to make money selling it later?

this,   the weighting ratio of one to the other, will hugely impact on what is the "best buy"

maltingsaudio

Cynical head says any collector class gutars available way over priced. Any player class available dogs why would you sell a "brilliant" vintage players guitar unless its crap or fake

IvisonGuitars

guitarfishbay said:

Are you buying primarily for tone or to make money selling it later?

I'm basically looking to buy one in memory of someone close and hand it down to my son when I'm gone.

ICBM

Monstronaut said:

All the vintage guitars I've owned have been player grade and I can highly recommend it. For me there is something in the wood and feel of vintage guitars that is special. I've not had/played one that has been a tone turd but had some that haven't sounded/played the way I want and usually a re-fret/set up/ possibly new pickups has been the answer. Here's my '62 ES-345, none of the parts are original but are all high quality repros(antiquities, pigtail etc) and it rings like a bastard. An absolute delight to play. It cost me a good chunk less than a reissue.

To my mind that's the right kind of vintage guitar. Old wood, anything and possibly everything else replaced, no silly originality premium, no worries about if it needs any further maintenance, just a great guitar.

Kind of like all the old violins that are still used by top classical musicians… every one of which has been rebuilt over the centuries but still has the sound - and the value, for that matter.

maltingsaudio said:

Any player class available dogs why would you sell a "brilliant" vintage players guitar unless its crap or fake

Because you need the money? Or because it doesn't suit you? Or you just want a "better" one?

I've sold vintage guitars that were really good player examples for all those reasons...

Skipped

It is 100% not "snake oil".
But after that - it get's complicated.
First of all, we have to define vintage. I am fairly sure that a new Gibson Historic Les Paul is a better guitar than a Les Paul Deluxe.
Coming to a conclusion about the merits of guitars built by Gibson (and Fender) in the 50s and 60s is not that easy in the Uk because there are so few vintage guitar dealers. But next time you holiday in the USA it is well worth an afternoon spent with a dealer who has 50 vintage guitars to look at.  Then go to Guitar Centre and play 50 new guitars.
Large numbers of people are buying Gibson Historic guitars. They all seem to agree that they are very nice guitars and that the more accurate they become (to the originals) the more awesome they become.

What does this piece of information tell us about the originals? 

maltingsaudio

miserneil said:

guitarfishbay said:

Are you buying primarily for tone or to make money selling it later?

I'm basically looking to buy one in memory of someone close and hand it down to my son when I'm gone.

If this was me, and it has been, I would commission something new, as its in memory then surely the instrument should have no other memories than the person it is dedicated to. It would also have no other value than the memories it carries ergo priceless 

bertie

maltingsaudio said:

If this was me, and it has been, I would commission something new, as its in memory then surely the instrument should have no other memories than the person it is dedicated to. It would also have no other value than the memories it carries ergo priceless 

ooh,  good call

xSkarloey

bertie said:

maltingsaudio said:

If this was me, and it has been, I would commission something new, as its in memory then surely the instrument should have no other memories than the person it is dedicated to. It would also have no other value than the memories it carries ergo priceless 

ooh,  good call

I like that idea too. It's a good option to have just in case you can't find the proverbial 'keeper' from off the shelf or from a dealer. 

I still think it's worth looking high and low and keeping all options open, because all the effort you put in to finding 'the one' will add to the personal value of what sounds like for you as much an emotional as a financial investment. 

bertie

it may well end up being better value (as in less ££) than a real vintage.............and chances are more than likely a hugely better "player"

OilCityPickups

I've owned/played quite a few nice vintage instruments over the years. I too tend towards the 'player grade' guitars as I like instruments that appear to 'tell a story'  ... and thus have 'personalities' of their own.

Grunfeld

miserneil said:

guitarfishbay said:

Are you buying primarily for tone or to make money selling it later?

I'm basically looking to buy one in memory of someone close and hand it down to my son when I'm gone.

Buy a new one now and live a long and happy life... it will be vintage by the time your son gets it.

That second-hand but only a year old Gibson I bought with the money from my Saturday job is now... eeek... 35 years old, so it's getting there.

The other thing is a difficult one but it's hard to know that kids will value heirlooms in the same way.  I suppose a guitar is not too big to hang on to but neither of my sons are that into guitars so gawd knows what will happen to my guitars when I'm no longer playing them.

marantz1300

Forget investments.Buy to play.
As for vintage or modern,it just depends on the guitar and which gives you the most pleasure to play.
There are great guitars old and new.

koneguitarist

New guitars are better. I have had a 61, 63, and a load of 70's strats, new ones are just better made, more consistent, and the pickups are generally done as a set so calibrated.

Not saying old guitars are crap, just new ones for comparable price are far superior.

ICBM

koneguitarist said:

Not saying old guitars are crap, just new ones for comparable price are far superior.

I totally agree with that.

Although, it does depend on the model - you can still get "lesser" Fenders and Gibsons (Mustangs, Melody Makers etc) from the classic period for no more than a modern CS Strat or Tele for example - and some of them can be very characterful, great-sounding guitars… even if not in some ways as "good" in the conventional sense.

You can also get refinished or otherwise collector-compromised vintage models, even the desirable ones, for much less than most people expect. Monstronaut's 345 is a perfect example.