Micing an awkward cab live

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sgosdensgosden Frets: 1993

So I've got a Brunetti NEO1512, with a 12" cel' V30 and Jensen 15". It sounds bloody lovely.

I'd like to use it live but not sure if it'll be more hassle than its worth.

With a lot of gigs we tend to cab share with other bands, when most people us a 4x12, meaning for ease of sharing I either take my Marshall, or use someone elses cab.  But with new amp, the Brunetti just has THAT sound, so I want to start using it properly.

I have no idea how to best mic the cab (or advise varying competence of sound men) to reproduce the sound through the PA.

The most obvious solution seems to be just getting an sm57 on the V30. But then I'll loose the nice low end that comes from the Jensen.


any idea / advice?

is it going to be too pretentious of me, and piss of said soundman?

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Comments

  • sgosdensgosden Frets: 1993
    I'm very tempted to go down the two notes torpedo route for the FOH sound, and just have any old cab on stage for volume/monitoring.
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  • ESBlondeESBlonde Frets: 3576
    It's easy enough for a soundman to dial in more bottom to your V30 and match the combined driver sound if you ask. However not every venue will bless the result depending on room response and what else goes on within the band (keys/bass/more guitar/harmonies/sax). You have to trust the man to get your sound or if it's festival stage, a decent workable sound on the fly.
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  • The most obvious answer is to take your own mics with you on claws and set them yourself, however from the soundmans point of view warn them before you arrive how you want the cab mic'd to  preempt any issues, he/she will tell you what is or isn't possible on the gig simple communication solves most of these problems.

    Sitting at front of house mixing your band, it is most likely that the bass end of your set up will be missed in the mix due to the space the bass guitar and other instruments occupy, but again if the soundman is aware of what you want the guitar to sound like then he/she will/should do their best to reproduce it.

    So in one statement talk to the sound guy well befor the gig and tell them what you want 
    www.maltingsaudio.co.uk
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  • CirrusCirrus Frets: 8481
    edited October 2016
    sgosden said:

    The most obvious solution seems to be just getting an sm57 on the V30. But then I'll loose the nice low end that comes from the Jensen.


    any idea / advice?

    is it going to be too pretentious of me, and piss of said soundman?

    It will piss off soundmen if you want them to mic up both speakers.

    If they're lazy they'll be pissed off that they have to set up another mic. If they're smart but desperately trying to get the stage set up quickly they'll be pissed off at the extra time and the extra care they'll need to take with the placement of both mics to ensure phase coherence and that both channels are of the same polarity. Not that it can't work well, just telling you what to expect. It's much easier to mess up the tone with a two mic setup due to comb filtering if the distances aren't right.

    Personally, I'd be happy with just a mic on the V30. With an open backed cab you get a lot more low end at the speaker than you do from even just a few feet further on front because of the way open backed cabs project sound, then you've also got the proximity effect of the mic giving you more low end as well. What's more, the frequency response and general tone variabilities of the different PA setups, rooms and even soundmen's different mixing tastes mean that anything from the mic forward is a total crapshoot anyway.

    I long ago learned that on that kind of gig I need to get the sound I want coming from the amp behind me but that anything from the mic onwards is just down to chance and ultimately beyond your control unless you're hiring your own crew..
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  • Danny1969Danny1969 Frets: 10357
    I have had up to 3 channels of one single guitar requested of me, that was a Queen Tribute, 3 amps one dry and 2 effected. Personally working as am FOH engineer it wouldn't bother me but some guys mixing with a reduced channel count due to smaller desk \ smaller multicore or whatever might be pissed off allocating 2 mics and channels for one guitar.

    Personally as a guitarist I wouldn't bother with the extra speaker as I know most guys mixing don't like too much low end of guitars, and will probably hi pass it anyway which would defeat the object anyway

    www.2020studios.co.uk 
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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 71963
    There are three options really…

    1 - the FOH sound can easily bear no real relation to the cab sound anyway, given that close-mic'ing never sounds like the whole cab and the soundman can alter it drastically just by turning a knob, so mic the V30 and don't worry about it any more.

    2 - the opposite, ask the soundman nicely if he could mic both speakers. It's no more work than mic'ing two guitarists really - apart from possible phasing issues, which shouldn't be hard to deal with if the speakers aren't very similar-sounding. They may still get grumpy though.

    3 - Do it all yourself… take your own mics and stands (or cab-mounting clamps) and set them up yourself, and use a mic mixer so the soundman still only has to deal with a single feed. A passive 2-into-1 combiner will be fine for two SM57s, you don't need anything fancy.

    (4 - use a DI/emulator. No-one out front will notice.)

    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone." - Walt Kowalski

    "Just because I don't care, doesn't mean I don't understand." - Homer Simpson

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  • Just use 4 like @ICBM says no one will notice, and the sound you like is what you hear next to it, not what it sounds like in a mix far out front. 
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  • sgosdensgosden Frets: 1993
    Di / emulation seems to be the easiest and probably most consitant option. 

    Next step I guess is choosing how 
    1) Inline DI - radial JDX or Palmer stuff.
    2) save the full hog and get a TNtorpedo live
    3) go for a helix/fractal with 4cm to amp and use IRs (could sell off the strymons to part fund this option) 

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  • sgosdensgosden Frets: 1993
    If like to be able to set it up myself but I'm no sound engineer. Nor do I have the equipment or space to pkay around :) 
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  • CirrusCirrus Frets: 8481
    ICBM said:
     apart from possible phasing issues, which shouldn't be hard to deal with if the speakers aren't very similar-sounding.
    You might be surprised just how different two signal chains of the same performance need to sound before they're basically phase-incoherent enough for it not to be an issue. When I'm mixing it can drive me mad if I'm splitting a track and reamping one - even if it's the difference between almost-clean and totall fuzzed out you still get stuff cancelling out.
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