"Harmonic Content"....discuss

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LewyLewy Frets: 4123
It's something that gets talked about a lot but just wondering if and how anyone actually consciously hears it. If I play a few harmonics on a string and then hit it open, I can hear them faintly in the openly hit string, especially as the fundamental note dies....often I'll hear the fifth harmonic die out last on certain strings.

Buts it's only when I'm doing that sort of conscious cork sniffing that I'm really aware of anything other than the fundamental in the sound of notes when I play them.


Is anyone's experience different?
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  • paul_c2paul_c2 Frets: 410
    Of course, everyone's experience will be slightly different, because our hearing and perception is all unique. However, I think you always subconciously hear the harmonics of any given musical note, since it is this which makes up the timbre of the sound. This is why a human voice sounds different to an oboe, or a clarinet, or a guitar, or a piano etc etc etc. Then of course there's variations within each type of musical instrument; and variations across the decay, sustain and release of each note of each guitar etc etc. Whether the change in volume of each harmonic overtone is significant enough to be perceptible to the majority, or a minority, of listeners is of course subjective.

    "Aware of anything other than the fundamental" - I think if you can identify the timbre/tone of a particular instrument, then you've subconciously identified the range of harmonics you're hearing anyway.

    Of course, if you listen to anything clearly (ie in isolation and at sufficient volume, with a focus on listening to it) then you'll notice more than if you hear it in a mix, or distantly etc
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  • It's worth bearing in mind that unless you're damping all the other strings, some of them will vibrate sympathetically via the resonance of the guitar, which is precisely why you can hear those 5ths resonating.
    The Assumptions - UAE party band for all your rock & soul desires
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  • LewyLewy Frets: 4123
    It's worth bearing in mind that unless you're damping all the other strings, some of them will vibrate sympathetically via the resonance of the guitar, which is precisely why you can hear those 5ths resonating.
    A valid point although in the case I'm describing I am damping the strings ... It's definitely just on the string I've hit.
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  • I can't improve on what @paul_c2 said but there's a video at the link below


    It's not a competition.
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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 71950
    You're hearing far more than the fundamental even if you don't realise it. The pure fundamental sounds very odd and un-acoustic-guitar-like, like the neck pickup of an electric guitar when you're playing around the 12th fret, and picking right over the pickup - only even more so.

    I was recently working on one of those Gretsch Rancher guitars which has the pickup right up at the 19th-fret position, and the amplified tone bore no relation to the acoustic sound at all - almost all fundamental and sounded like a metal drainpipe.

    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone." - Walt Kowalski

    "Just because I don't care, doesn't mean I don't understand." - Homer Simpson

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  • LewyLewy Frets: 4123
    edited November 2016
    Interesting stuff, thanks all.

    So, a follow up question - if you've ever described an acoustic's sound as "harmonically complex", what are you actually discernibly hearing to prompt the use of that term? Can you think of any recorded examples?

    I ask because this isn't something I've given much attention to and I suspect that actually hearing this stuff is a bit like wine tasting - you have to focus and practice picking out the nuance to get beyond a "tastes nice/doesn't taste nice" appreciation. To date, my appreciation of my guitars has mostly been limited to "is it louder than a banjo".
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  • paul_c2paul_c2 Frets: 410
    I'd not describe something as "harmonically complex" as such, since pretty much all tones have harmonics of some kinds in - but I guess one might describe the tone produced as in ICBM's post above, as "harmonically simple" if you were deliberately focusing on the content/volume of the harmonics.

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  • paul_c2paul_c2 Frets: 410
    edited November 2016
    I am wondering whether "harmonic content" or "harmonically complex" relates to harmony - ie different instruments playing at the same time to produce chords, or a guitar (or other polyphonic instrument) playing chords which are not simple chords. Or a non-simple chord progression etc?
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  • LewyLewy Frets: 4123
    edited November 2016
    Here's one I see regularly - "Compared to mahogany, rosewood back and sides give a more harmonically rich, complex sound"

    Now, it may just be classic guitar hyperbole waffle in which case that's fine, but I'm wondering why in that particular case, people gravitate to thinking that rosewood has MORE going on as opposed to just a different timbre. 
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  • AliGorieAliGorie Frets: 308
    Hm, Lewy - don’t worry about all that ‘talk’, it’s mostly hot wind.
    The internet is responsible for taking people to some weird places concerning flat top steel strung guitars - which they call ‘acoustic’ - everything u hear is acoustic.
    Heres an example - a poorly made - particularly the soundboard system rosewood b/s guitar may have less overtones than a well made guitar with mahogany b/s.
    heres two videos, listen to them carefully and think of the implications of what JG’s saying for production line made guitars like 99% of us play.






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  • TimmyOTimmyO Frets: 7349
    I've recently been trying lots of acoustic guitars (one will be my next purchase)

    I sat in Westside in Denmark St with a load of Martins arranged around me (thanks to the guys in the shop - they were cool about it) just picking up and playing and putting down to try and hear the differences between some of these things.

    I *totally* hear the thing that people try to describe re Mahogany vs rosewood on otherwise fairly similar guitars (although I don't think on the ones I tried it was ever the only variable) : the Mahogany seemed dryer, quicker, more direct, the Rosewood fuller, slower-seeming almost (does this make any sense to anyone? lol ) 

    My personal interpretation of the whole 'harmonically rich' thing is what I think I hear when I compare say a Martin to an Avalon/Lowden (I had one of the expensive Avalon back in the day) - it's a very different sound. Where the american guitar was strident and authoritative the celtic one was fuller across the spectrum, louder but also almost a bit compressed in that there sounded to be more of everything. Very different. both great. 

    I'll shush now and look forward to others thoughts on this - good question. 
    Red ones are better. 
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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 71950
    Lewy said:
    Here's one I see regularly - "Compared to mahogany, rosewood back and sides give a more harmonically rich, complex sound"

    Now, it may just be classic guitar hyperbole waffle in which case that's fine, but I'm wondering why in that particular case, people gravitate to thinking that rosewood has MORE going on as opposed to just a different timbre. 
    It's not only wrong, if there is any truth in it, it's the other way round!

    Rosewood has a cleaner and deeper sound which could possibly be described as *less* harmonically rich than mahogany which is rougher and more midrangy - although I'm quite sure both actually have about the same harmonic complexity, just a different balance.

    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone." - Walt Kowalski

    "Just because I don't care, doesn't mean I don't understand." - Homer Simpson

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  • CHRISB50CHRISB50 Frets: 4286
    ICBM said:
    Lewy said:
    Here's one I see regularly - "Compared to mahogany, rosewood back and sides give a more harmonically rich, complex sound"

    Now, it may just be classic guitar hyperbole waffle in which case that's fine, but I'm wondering why in that particular case, people gravitate to thinking that rosewood has MORE going on as opposed to just a different timbre. 
    It's not only wrong, if there is any truth in it, it's the other way round!

    Rosewood has a cleaner and deeper sound which could possibly be described as *less* harmonically rich than mahogany which is rougher and more midrangy - although I'm quite sure both actually have about the same harmonic complexity, just a different balance.
    This. At least it's my experience.

    When I got my Lowden (O22C), I A/B'd between RW back and sides and mahogany back and sides, both cedar tops.

    The RW back and sides was almost all fundamental tone, with very little harmonic overtone.

    The mahogany back and sided guitar still had a lot of fundamental tone but also loads of harmonic overtone. More of a 3D sound. I've found mahogany gets that 'bloom' effect you get on expensive amps with a decent electric guitar. 

    I can't help about the shape I'm in, I can't sing I ain't pretty and my legs are thin

    But don't ask me what I think of you, I might not give the answer that you want me to

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  • LewyLewy Frets: 4123
    CHRISB50 said:

    The RW back and sides was almost all fundamental tone, with very little harmonic overtone.


    This is the nub for me I think - so when you hit a note on an acoustic, you can discern the fundamental and then the overtones (or lack thereof) as opposed to just hearing...a note? That's a listening skill I don't have. I obviously can hear a difference between rosewood and mahogany, but I definitely can't go "more fundamental and less overtones on that one".

    Thanks for all the contributions, An interesting academic discussion.


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  • CHRISB50CHRISB50 Frets: 4286
    Lewy said:
    CHRISB50 said:

    The RW back and sides was almost all fundamental tone, with very little harmonic overtone.


    This is the nub for me I think - so when you hit a note on an acoustic, you can discern the fundamental and then the overtones (or lack thereof) as opposed to just hearing...a note? That's a listening skill I don't have. I obviously can hear a difference between rosewood and mahogany, but I definitely can't go "more fundamental and less overtones on that one".

    Thanks for all the contributions, An interesting academic discussion.


    I think so, but it may only be in my head. :) 

    I'm just describing the sound in the best way I know. I don't think I have any special listening powers!

    I think with regards to the overtones, it helps that it is a Lowden, and mahogany. The Celtic makers, as has been said above, seem to produce guitars with more going on in this respect, and overtones are definitely more noticeable with mahogany back and sides. 

    If I had the resources, I'd do a sound clip. If anything just to find out if I'm spouting bollocks ;)

    I can't help about the shape I'm in, I can't sing I ain't pretty and my legs are thin

    But don't ask me what I think of you, I might not give the answer that you want me to

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  • AliGorieAliGorie Frets: 308
    edited November 2016
    ok - a little fun trial here, I've snatched this from the net, hope the guy don't mind and I'll put up the original after a bit.
    It's a simple straight fingerpicked tune.
    What do ya think this guitar is made of ?.

    https://app.box.com/s/g18wpee0owwy0z3g4nt50bh09g9gk9yj


    heres how it goes Lewy, I have smallish far eastern ‘copy’ guitar, it’s sitka and some kind of wood the advertised as ‘mahogany’. As with most production guitars the makers decide on the models they’re going to build and the designs / dimensions their gonna use (inside and out), it doesn't sound  like a typical classic dry, woody (earthy) guitar, it's got lots of reverby character and overtones.
    This is where the player comes in - to find the ‘good ’n’.
    I may have got lucky with this guitar as I preferred it’s sound to the more expensive Adirondack / R/Wood model.
    All of this stuff leaves u to wonder if u consider what Mr Greven is saying - is, where u have a pile of tops / b/sides and braces on a production line - is, will there be some of those raw materials more suited to a given design / dimensions / size - when u consider stiffness, density  etc. ?
    hope u can understand what I’m getting at here.
    Where Mr Greven has the luxury of choosing each component for a given outcome, he can predict the ‘overtone’ content to a fairly fine degree.
    Same may be true that a production line guitar just has the right ingredient for a given model to make 1 in xx high in overtone partials.
    Who knows



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  • LewyLewy Frets: 4123
    edited November 2016
    AliGorie said:

    I may have got lucky with this guitar as I preferred it’s sound to the more expensive Adirondack / R/Wood model.
    All of this stuff leaves u to wonder if u consider what Mr Greven is saying - is, where u have a pile of tops / b/sides and braces on a production line - is, will there be some of those raw materials more suited to a given design / dimensions / size - when u consider stiffness, density  etc. ?
    hope u can understand what I’m getting at here.

    So one can infer that there's a chance (within limits) that any production guitar could coincidentally roll off the line with exactly the same combination of component woods as it would had Greven meticulously tap/flex tested and selected everything. 

    It does make you wonder what goes on at, say, the Collings factory when someone specifies Adi bracing as an upgrade option...do they then go looking for a top that's then going to work with that bracing or do they just think f*ck it, give 'em what they asked for and use the top that was next up to be used anyway.....

    As for what the guitar is made of...no clue, but I could hear lots of overtones going on (or was it just sympathetic vibrations of undamped strings?). Is it a trick question....is it a strat through an acoustic sim or something? :)
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  • AliGorieAliGorie Frets: 308
    hey Lewy, as u say 'within limits' I doubt even the 'boutique' shops match up the components for a soundboard - sure they'll start of with 'nice stuff'. Theres a good video of Dana Bourgeois 'voicing' a top, most work to 'standard' dimensions which will play to the safe side - to negate warranty repairs.
    No it's not a trick question - just an interesting one. =)
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  • mellowsunmellowsun Frets: 2422
    I don't know if this is the right word, but I find that some guitars can be too 'resonant', which is great for certain styles, e.g. Celtic tunes in DADGAD, but other times you don't want all that overspill.

    Can be hard to record and place in a mix also.

    But, for solo playing, it's such a satisfying sound it can be very addictive.

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  • TimmyOTimmyO Frets: 7349
    I recall years ago a brand (I'm *almost* certain it was Taylor) had a thing going on about how it mattered possibly more how you made it rather than what it was made from, and to make the point constructed an acoustic guitar from pallet wood (or something similarly 'trash' material) and carted it around various trade shows as part of the promo. It was, by all accounts, good. 

    Didn't Yamaha make a production guitar out of bamboo?
    Red ones are better. 
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