Gibson Historic capacitors

xscaramanga

I have a 1999 Gibson Historic R4 Black Beauty I'm planning to sell (or possibly keep under the bed to sell at a later date).

A previous owner has changed the capacitors to Hovland Musicaps and done a fairly poor job—the wiring is not tidy, and one of the caps is slightly melted, presumably where they caught it with a hot soldering iron. I also fairly regularly have problems where a pot stops functioning correctly, so I think it's worth redoing everything neatly and making sure there are no dry joints.

I'd like to get the guitar back to original condition to prepare it for sale. What capacitors would the guitar have come with originally?

ICBM

It might actually have been little ceramic discs . I can't remember for sure. There's a 90s Historic LPC in the shop I can have a look at, but not until Thursday.

If you're going to redo it with a view to selling the guitar - and even though it pains me to reward them for this nonsense - it might be worth spending the utterly ridiculous, stupid, dishonest ripoff price that Gibson want for their "reissue Bumblebees"... not because it makes the slightest difference to the tone whatever (especially not given that they're actually modern polypropylene caps inside the resin casings!) but because that's what a buyer who cares would want/expect. It could make more difference than the cost of the caps.

xscaramanga

Thanks. If you could look that'd be much appreciated.

Do you think that holds true even though those reissue Bumblebees weren't (as far as I know) available when this guitar was built? I would have thought 'original' was more important than 'better' here.

EDIT: Also Gibson's hyped-up marketing bollocks says they're late 50s models, and mine's a 1954 reissue.

ICBM

jonnyscaramanga said:

Do you think that holds true even though those reissue Bumblebees weren't (as far as I know) available when this guitar was built? I would have thought 'original' was more important than 'better' here.

EDIT: Also Gibson's hyped-up marketing bollocks says they're late 50s models, and mine's a 1954 reissue.

I think the bollocks about caps is so entrenched that Bumblebees are going to be the preferred choice even if they aren't original - no-one seems to want ceramics even if they are. (And even though both Gibson and Fender used them in the 60s.) My guess is that this is a case where 'better' is preferred to 'original' for anyone who believes what they read about caps affecting the tone, and irrelevant for anyone who doesn't.

For what it's worth the same chap who owns the Historic Custom also had a '98 Historic Junior, and that definitely had a ceramic cap, but I don't know if the Junior spec was the same.

slacker

Didn't the originals have Grey Tigers?

ICBM

slacker said:

Didn't the originals have Grey Tigers?

As far as I know all original '52-'56 Gibsons did, yes.

slacker

A quick search reveals various companies making repos between £20 to £60.

ICBM

slacker said:

A quick search reveals various companies making repos between £20 to £60.

Yes, but since Gibson don't use them in the Historics, you probably wouldn't want to put them in as they then can't be original even though they would be more historically correct .

It's all really a bit silly when they make no difference whatsoever to the function, but that's guitarists and originality for you…basically I would put in whatever an average buyer would expect to find in a Historic Gibson.

Obviously just my opinion. Actually if it was me, I'd just leave the Hovlands and tidy the wiring up.

Danielsguitars

Don't buy gibson bumblebee caps
They are cheap crap wrapped in that case
There was a thread on mlp where someone took one apart
Just another gibson rip off and very dishonest imo

If you go down that route get luxe bumblebees at least they're proper pio

SteveRobinson

The construction of the capacitor doesn't make any difference of course.

ICBM

customkits said:

Don't buy gibson bumblebee caps
They are cheap crap wrapped in that case
There was a thread on mlp where someone took one apart
Just another gibson rip off and very dishonest imo

Indeed, but actually a useful exercise in disproving bunkum. Some people swore their guitars sounded better with them fitted… but didn't say they sounded worse after they were revealed to just be standard modern caps inside.

Danielsguitars

I prefer pio caps myself, I think they're smoother and not so harsh 

The Russian pio caps are cheap and as good as the bumblebees

ICBM

customkits said:

I prefer pio caps myself, I think they're smoother and not so harsh 

The Russian pio caps are cheap and as good as the bumblebees

In an amp, yes they can be. They also tend to have a higher failure rate though.

In a guitar it makes no difference, they just look nice.

Danielsguitars

I did all that years ago

Orange drops cheap ones pio etc 

I'll have to do it again and record it and see what I think now

WezV

customkits said:

I did all that years ago

Orange drops cheap ones pio etc 

I'll have to do it again and record it and see what I think now

did you match the values of the caps and wire to a switch to you can change on the fly?

its only when i did this that i was finally convinced there was no difference in type.

However, I went through  a big bag of .022 ceramic disc caps and didn't find many close to the stated value - most were below at .015 -.018.  whereas the orange drops, vintage caps and modern PIO's were much closer to what they should be.  I tend to stick with orange drop or better.

I suspect the difference most people do hear when they change caps is down to the different values - although ICBM does say he doesn't even think this makes much difference as long as its within 20% of the stated value

Danielsguitars

The trouble with all of this stuff is people believe what they want to do There's no point trying to convince someone and I won't 
I'll just put what I want in as I'm building it

Same goes for amps and tonewood 

I built 2 amps with all the same components apart from resistors
The one that sounded the best had a few carbon comps put in where they matter, my ears told me that 
To some they wouldn't or couldn't care less 

Same goes for the tonewood lot, apparantly it doesn't matter, it does to me but I won't change their mind no matter what I do

Just do what you want it's your stuff

WezV

I agree, and still use some fancier caps just because I like the way they look.

but I disagree it's the same as an active component in an amp (easier to test, definitely makes a difference) or anything like the tonewood debate ( very hard to test, but clear differences to anyone who has ears)

the guitar cap one is piss easy to test and makes no difference to sounds available... so I always ask if people have checked the rated value when they swear it does.

  FYI, I still feel the sweep is different on some caps.  Same sounds full on and full off, but I was less sure the in between settings were in the same place.  ICBM will still tell me I am wrong, that's okay.

 

Danielsguitars

I agree 

I wonder with 50's wiring it seems different because it cleans up better to my ears 

I'll only ever do 50's because it sounds better to me and I like the more interactive controls 

ICBM

50s wiring definitely makes a difference, because there is a real difference in the circuit - although not when the volume is full up, of course.

Cap type doesn't. It's very easy to prove it for yourself with a switch, as Wez said. You can compare two caps of the same value at any settings of the volume and tone controls and you will never hear any difference.

I can't remember if I tested two caps at 20% above *and* below the marked value at the same time - I don't think so, and I would expect that to be audible - but up to 20% between the two didn't seem to be.

I also like to use the 'right' caps by the way! Even expensive ones are a fairly small cost if you're rewiring a single guitar, although it might start to matter if you're building a lot. Nothing to do with tone, just 'mojo' or whatever you call it...

Cap types certainly can make a difference in some positions in amp circuits though - because the conditions are totally different... self-distortion is a factor, which it isn't in a guitar. The same is true for resistor types in some positions, eg plate load resistors.

Danielsguitars

If I can be bothered I might try a few again 

Tbh though I'm happy with pio caps, I got a bag of 50 Russian ones that work out at something like 75 pence each

ICBM

Just to confirm, the Historic '57 LP Custom in the shop does have the small tan ceramic caps. It's a '95 guitar so the change to the fake bumblebees must be later than that.