Anyone tried solid state valves yet?

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  • I assume as real valves become harder to find the SS valves will increase in popularity and the price will fall. The only issue I see with that is that they aren't consumable like regular valves - one set will last a lifetime. That might keep the price up.

    I wonder when valves are gone if traditional valve amps will continue to be made - with SS valves in them. Rather than shifting to away from valve-based amp designs.

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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 71960
    edited August 2013
    Do they have a massive lifespan?
    If so they might be worth it in the long run.
    In theory if they're properly engineered to conservative specs so they can't be overloaded in use, they should last indefinitely - solid state active components don't wear out like valves do. The long-term problem will be if they contain electrolytic capacitors, which they may.

    I could also see a time in the (possibly not too distant) future when valves are no longer made, and the choice for valve amp owners will either be increasingly expensive diminishing supplies of old-production valves - possibly involving new amp designs, or converters for existing ones, so that valve types which are currently plentiful and not expensive because they have no normal audio application*, can be used - or solid state replacements.

    I would actually be surprised if many amps are designed from the ground up to take solid-state replacements, it seems like an overly complex route, the only advantage of which would be the ability to swap them for personal taste/fine-tuning.

    Overall I can see pure solid-state and digital taking over in the end.


    (*Already Russian-made 6P6s are being touted as a '6V6 equivalent' - which they aren't, but they're close enough that if you designed an amp with lower voltages which put less stress on them, they will work.)

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  • martinwmartinw Frets: 2149
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    ICBM said:
    I could also see a time in the (possibly not too distant) future when valves are no longer made....
     
    I can't.
     
    Making valves isn't that hard, nor is it impossible to control the environmental aspects. (Solid state electronics are also filthy in that regard).
    There's enough of a market to keep small manufacturers in business for many years.
    Loads of other obsolete, niche, stuff is still around, with far less demand, so I don't see why valves would suddenly become unobtainable. The death of valves has been oft reported before.
     
    As to solid state 12AX7s...not sure what problem they're trying to  fix. Why would somebody pay more for something that is "only 95% there".

    #-o #-o
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  • digitalscreamdigitalscream Frets: 26461
    Oddly, these would likely decrease the number of valve amps returned because they're "faulty" after purchase - I've had a few amps which I've returned because they didn't turn up in a functional state, and all except one of them were because of faulty valves; I don't see why I should go to the trouble of diagnosing the fault and the cost of replacing the parts when it should arrive in working order.

    Solid state parts - if designed sensibly - should be far, far more reliable than valves. Not only that, but their performance won't change over time like valves' do; at least, not in remotely the same timeframe. I'd expect a set of these power valve replacements to last a good 10 years at least, whereas I tend to be changing glass bottles every 12 months or so because the low end's dropped out.
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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 71960
    edited August 2013
    martinw said:
    The death of valves has been oft reported before.
    That's true, but not at the same time as digital emulation is much improved, CRT TV/monitor production which uses a lot of the same materials has more or less ceased (if it hasn't completely) and music itself may be moving further away from traditional electric guitar sounds. There are a lot of technologies which seemed as if they would last forever which have been overtaken by events. It may be not that valve production ceases suddenly but that it just gets progressively more niche and expensive, and it dies slowly. There may come a point where the demand has fallen enough that it looks like the existing stocks will be enough for the forseeable future, and at that point there's no point in making more.

    I don't mean next year or in the next few years, but can you see valves being made in 100 years time? I can't. If not, how about 50? If not, how about 20?

    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone." - Walt Kowalski

    "Just because I don't care, doesn't mean I don't understand." - Homer Simpson

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  • martinwmartinw Frets: 2149
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    We'll see.
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  • Van_HaydenVan_Hayden Frets: 437
    The key to the demise of CRT manufacture was new technology that the market thought was better/bigger (which is also better apparently). We stopped buying them in favour of LCDs etc. So we'd need a marketable replacement before valves became obsolete.

    Between us and audiophools valves will be about for some time, they've done 100 years so far. Valves have already been culled - we've already got a limited choice compared to 50 years agog, survival of the fittest.

    Perhaps solid state valves will be the technology to give thermionic valves the push. I'd love some solid state KT88s that sound like a fresh set or GECs and last forever. I'd pay a lot for them too.

    Anybody remember Blackburn Techtubes from a couple of years ago?

    There was that company that made Smooth Tubes too - Carlton or Camel. They put a little light in them to make us guitarists all warm and fuzzy inside.
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  • digitalscreamdigitalscream Frets: 26461
    edited August 2013
    Between us and audiophools valves will be about for some time, they've done 100 years so far. Valves have already been culled - we've already got a limited choice compared to 50 years agog, survival of the fittest. 
    The problem is that it's not survival of the "fittest" - overall quality has dropped massively. At the same time, valves which are almost as good and solid as in the old days are frighteningly expensive.

    So no...perhaps valves will continue to be made, but they'll be out of the price range of most guitarists before too long. When a set of valves costs as much as your amp, it's time to start thinking about alternatives ;)

    The thing is, solid state valve replacements are really only a stopgap to get over the transitional period and to support legacy gear. The end game is solid state amps which incorporate the technology properly and without the need for the sockets in the first place.
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  • Drew_TNBDDrew_TNBD Frets: 22445
    I've already decided that the next amp purchase I make (if indeed any) will be modelling. I think the main reason I never went modelling in the past was because of price and lack of the feature set that I want.
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  • digitalscreamdigitalscream Frets: 26461
    edited August 2013
    Drew_fx said:
    I've already decided that the next amp purchase I make (if indeed any) will be modelling. I think the main reason I never went modelling in the past was because of price and lack of the feature set that I want.
    Strangely, given my history, I've pretty much decided that my next amp purchase will not be modelling - at least, not digital modelling. The AMT gear is definitely at the top of my list right now; their analogue preamps are incredible, and if that carries over to their amps then it's pretty much a shoe-in.

    Then again, Jet City are supposed to be knocking together some solid state power amp valve replacements this year too. I sort of wonder how they got to the market first with the preamp ones, but they're lagging behind on the power amp versions.
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  • ddloopingddlooping Frets: 325
    Would these solid state "valves" also suffer from sag, a characteristic that seem to be quite appreciated by valve amp users?
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  • I've never heard a modern valve amp with sag. The only ones I've heard with it use a valve rectifier, most don't nowadays, asides from vintage reissues and some more expensive modern ones. To me, it's not a desirable feature, but each to their own.

    In a blind test in a shop, I couldn't tell which was valve, the black star id or the series 1.

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  • JalapenoJalapeno Frets: 6378
    I take it you've seen the Retro Channel - Retro Wreck ?


    Imagine something sharp and witty here ......

    Feedback
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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 71960
    edited August 2013
    The thing is, solid state valve replacements are really only a stopgap to get over the transitional period and to support legacy gear. The end game is solid state amps which incorporate the technology properly and without the need for the sockets in the first place.
    The only advantage I can think of in building new amps with sockets is the ability for users to customise their own amps. Even with something like the Blackstar ID which emulates half a dozen different valve types, there will always be someone who wants the ability to tweak it further by changing some part or other... that seems to be the nature of guitarists :).

    Although whether it needs to be done physically or in software (as I think the Blackstar will allow you to, although I'm not certain) is another thing.
    Then again, Jet City are supposed to be knocking together some solid state power amp valve replacements this year too. I sort of wonder how they got to the market first with the preamp ones, but they're lagging behind on the power amp versions.
    Power valves are much harder to build with solid-state than preamp. I'm still to be convinced that the AMT power valves are ready yet either, I was interested enough to try to "buy" some last night to find out the prices, and couldn't find them actually for sale.

    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone." - Walt Kowalski

    "Just because I don't care, doesn't mean I don't understand." - Homer Simpson

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  • martinwmartinw Frets: 2149
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    The problem is that it's not survival of the "fittest" - overall quality has dropped massively. At the same time, valves which are almost as good and solid as in the old days are frighteningly expensive.
     
     
    Really? Without wishing to get into a long, tedious discussion (again!), my own experience doesn't support that. Good-sounding and reliable valves are available reasonably cheaply.
     
    Do they sound as good? Well, A. that's subjective and B. I've never seen any proper blind test evidence either way. My own ears tell me yes, they do, but perhaps if I read it on the internet enough I'll change my mind! ;)
     
    Are they as reliable? I don't know because I wasn't working on valve equipment in the 50s/60s/70s, and again there's no data, only the opinions of others based on flawed analysis patterns. Remember that NOS (or just old and used) valves around nowadays are survivors, pre-selected for reliability. Even then, I've seen enough issues with them to be unconvinced of their supposedly magical powers.
     
    Whatever, maybe they are a tad less reliable. They're certainly not, in my experience, hugely unreliable in any way, so a good set of valves and off you go, done.
     
    Now I'm no valve apologist or luddite. If someone comes up with a good SS alternative, I'll use it. They've been trying for years, and yet valve amps still sell very well.

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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 71960
    edited August 2013
    martinw said:
    Remember that NOS (or just old and used) valves around nowadays are survivors, pre-selected for reliability.
    I would have to disagree with part of that - *truly* NOS (boxed, unused) old-production valves are not survivors, they're in the same state as brand new valves - and yet they do seem to be more reliable. Of course, "NOS" as used by many sellers seems to "mean" used old valves that test good, and then I'd agree with you.
    martinw said:
    Whatever, maybe they are a tad less reliable. They're certainly not, in my experience, hugely unreliable in any way, so a good set of valves and off you go, done.
    The big exception is modern rectifier valves, which really do seem to be total junk. I have come across a few failed old Mullards, GEs etc as well, but not remotely like the number of Chinese and Russian ones. Of course there is another problem with that data in that many modern amps have their standby switch incorrectly located which puts a lot of stress on the rectifier valve, and these amps all come with Chinese or Russian rectifiers... but old-production valves seem to hold up when people are brave or foolish enough to use them in these amps.

    (I admit that in many of these amps I've taken to fitting plug-in solid-state rectifiers, and I haven't had a complaint about poor tone yet!)

    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone." - Walt Kowalski

    "Just because I don't care, doesn't mean I don't understand." - Homer Simpson

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  • jaygtrjaygtr Frets: 218
    edited August 2013
    Slightly off topic, but do valves deteriorate over time if left unused in a box in good conditions , or will 50 year old unused valves be as good now as back then?
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  • martinwmartinw Frets: 2149
    edited August 2013 tFB Trader

    The key word in your first paragraph is 'seem'. You might be right, but I don't see why I should accept it without any evidence. It's a bit vague. Which valves? Which manufacturers? Are they all better made? Why? What's changed? They're all just better? Hmm...

    Conversely, where's the data showing that modern valves aren't, on the whole, reliable? My own experience contradicts this.

    I don't have a large enough sample size of NOS to judge, and as I said, I don't get a significant problem with new valve failures anyway, so to me it's a non-problem.

     

    I agree about rectifiers though, which is why I prefer not to use them in my own amps.

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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 71960
    martinw said:

    The key word in your first paragraph is 'seem'. You might be right, but I don't see why I should accept it without any evidence. It's a bit vague. Which valves? Which manufacturers? Are they all better made? Why? What's changed? They're all just better? Hmm...

    Conversely, where's the data showing that modern valves aren't, on the whole, reliable? My own experience contradicts this.

    I don't have a large enough sample size of NOS to judge, and as I said, I don't get a significant problem with new valve failures anyway, so to me it's a non-problem.

    I agree with all this actually. My experience is only anecdotal and a fairly small sample, although over a long period of time and it does appear to be that way.

    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone." - Walt Kowalski

    "Just because I don't care, doesn't mean I don't understand." - Homer Simpson

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  • ddloopingddlooping Frets: 325
    Jalapeno said:
    I take it you've seen the Retro Channel - Retro Wreck ?
    Quite impressive, thanks. :)
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