AxeFX & Kemper - thinking the unthinkable and selling my soul to the devil

TimmyO

colourofsound said:

With digital comes a loss of personality, a loss of unique identity and tendency for the quick fix; the easy way out.

That's among the sillier things I've read on here in a while. 

keir

Drew_TNBD said:

keir said:

When you play a kemper / helixdoes it feel like a real amp or does it sound / feel like a recorded amp?

Well all three sound amazing. And all three feel really good. Whether they feel like your favourite amp is another thing... I mean, not all valve amps feel the same to play through, so why should all modellers? Valve amps are a different thing. Modellers are their own thing imho, and I think once you lose the mindset of 'I'm trying to replace my valve amps' then that really free's you to be creative with them.

Cheers, I'm considering the move over. I seem to have valves go on me all the time, very frustrating. 

John_A

TimmyO said:

colourofsound said:

With digital comes a loss of personality, a loss of unique identity and tendency for the quick fix; the easy way out.

That's among the sillier things I've read on here in a while. 

Yep - And there's no shortage silly things said on here

It's not a quick fix, like anything else you need to work with it, and 99% of personality is in the fingers IMO

guitarfishbay

John_A said:

TimmyO said:

colourofsound said:

With digital comes a loss of personality, a loss of unique identity and tendency for the quick fix; the easy way out.

That's among the sillier things I've read on here in a while. 

Yep - And there's no shortage silly things said on here

It's not a quick fix, like anything else you need to work with it, and 99% of personality is in the fingers IMO

The honest truth is that most people can't tell what you're using on a recording, or through a good PA, and don't care either as long as it sounds nice.

And a huge amount of people are chasing the same kinds of tones anyway.  Unique identity from Les Paul + Marshall tones people have been using for 40 years?

Even 'modern' amps like the 5150 III are a decade old now.  It's all been done before and nobody gets a badge for having the highest KG rig, or most complex patch cable nightmare.  Even if a digital rig does make your life easier it doesn't play the guitar for you or write your songs.

Roland

colourofsound said:

Whereas, if a tube blows in your amp...you just replace it yourself. I carry spare valves with me at all times. And spare fuses. If something else breaks that you can't fix - it'll probably cost you £100 on average to fix an amp that cost over a grand.

With digital comes a loss of personality, a loss of unique identity and tendency for the quick fix; the easy way out.

Digital isn't right or wrong, it's just different. I like things I can fix. However there are times when I don't want to be swapping valves in the middle of a gig, and for those I need a hot standby. If I'm using valve then it's a second amp. If I'm digital it's a second processor. The cost is not just in the equipment, but in the transport and set up. Then factor in the probability of valve failure being much higher than the probability of electronics failure, and you have a different risk management profile and cost.

What fascinates me about this debate is the number of people with such strong views for and against. This doesn't means they are right or wrong. Just that their criteria for making a decision are very different from mine. The personality of a valve on its way out is like the personality of some singers, and something I prefer not to deal with. 

As for a quick fix. Most of us know there isn't one. Complaints about the amount of time and effort it takes to configure a digital system demonstrate that. The point is that, once you have got it right, it's reproduceable.

Jonathanthomas83

@colourofsound In a way I know where that last statement came from, to be fair. But in recent years it's become less and less true, honestly.

I once thought the same but since genuinely spending time with the Helix it's changed my mind about how good these things sound. But I'm not here to argue with anyone about their merits or downfalls, I like what I like and you like what you like.

Also, I've now had my amp fixed so that is no longer the reason I'm looking at digital modelling. In fact, I couldn't be happier with my rig, I've got everythin I need. Fact is, I can't deny how good these things sound and that I'm intrigued by the convenience and vast array of sounds.

Not to mention that I've even managed to dial in, fairly quickly, the type of sounds I play with most of the time. So colour me impressed! :-)

colourofsound

TimmyO said:

colourofsound said:

With digital comes a loss of personality, a loss of unique identity and tendency for the quick fix; the easy way out.

That's among the sillier things I've read on here in a while. 

I respectfully disagree That statement is loaded with more than just guitar gear though - I record and engineer and it's much more prevalent there IMO.

colourofsound

@Jonathanthomas83 The other thing for me which I didn't mention, is that having all of that choice would, for me, be crippling. I'm bad enough as it is with finding ways of fucking about for 4 hours and not actually writing or playing anything; if I had a toy like the Helix I'd literally get nothing done!

And as far as my last statement is concerned; I don't think it's silly. The majority of users will use presets and they will sound the same as each other - discerning members of this forum won't do that though. I can't deny the digital modelling sounds incredible now - I plan to utilise cab modelling to play my lovely tube amp silently - but I suppose I have misgivings I can't and don't really want to overcome. Plus I just don't need it...I don't gig that much at the moment and I really don't find moving a Deluxe Reverb and a pedalboard about that taxing!

If I was a touring musician or in a function band...that would be a different story.

John_A

I play in a function band covering quite a range of styles, I used to use one patch on the Helix for 95% of the set, now I've got it up to 100%.  I find because now I have it set up my rig is just 'there' so spend a lot more time playing rather than messing on.  I'm sure I'll explore more options in time but for now I have a totally consistent rig that sounds fantastic at all volumes.

Drew_TNBD

colourofsound said:

The majority of users will use presets

Um...

No. Just no.

That isn't even remotely correct. Even if I squint with one eye, there isn't anything that even comes close to ringing true about that statement.

colourofsound

Drew_TNBD said:

colourofsound said:

The majority of users will use presets

Um...

No. Just no.

That isn't even remotely correct. Even if I squint with one eye, there isn't anything that even comes close to ringing true about that statement.

Neither of us can really objectively say for sure either way.

Bridgehouse

colourofsound said:

Drew_TNBD said:

colourofsound said:

The majority of users will use presets

Um...

No. Just no.

That isn't even remotely correct. Even if I squint with one eye, there isn't anything that even comes close to ringing true about that statement.

Neither of us can really objectively say for sure either way.

Strictly speaking every user uses presets, they might have created them themselves but it's still a preset.

Now if you were talking about factory presets, then, um, no.

TimmyO

colourofsound said:

TimmyO said:

colourofsound said:

With digital comes a loss of personality, a loss of unique identity and tendency for the quick fix; the easy way out.

That's among the sillier things I've read on here in a while. 

I respectfully disagree That statement is loaded with more than just guitar gear though - I record and engineer and it's much more prevalent there IMO.

Oh when it comes to home-based 'songwriters' knocking stuff out on their computers I hear ya 

Drew_TNBD

colourofsound said:

Drew_TNBD said:

colourofsound said:

The majority of users will use presets

Um...

No. Just no.

That isn't even remotely correct. Even if I squint with one eye, there isn't anything that even comes close to ringing true about that statement.

Neither of us can really objectively say for sure either way.

10 years in the music software industry working with all kinds of musicians...

... they largely don't use presets. They roll their own.

guitarfishbay

You our can give someone all the presets in the world and it still won't make them Andy Wallace/insert name here.

colourofsound

Drew_TNBD said:

colourofsound said:

Drew_TNBD said:

colourofsound said:

The majority of users will use presets

Um...

No. Just no.

That isn't even remotely correct. Even if I squint with one eye, there isn't anything that even comes close to ringing true about that statement.

Neither of us can really objectively say for sure either way.

10 years in the music software industry working with all kinds of musicians...

... they largely don't use presets. They roll their own.

Fair Enough. An unfair assumption on my part.

Fiftyshadesofjay

Might as well just say everyone that uses a JCM800 sounds the same.

colourofsound

@Fiftyshadesofjay well no, thats kind of my point.

Nevermind, i've obviously not explained myself very well here.

And chances are i'll change my mind one day and get one

Jonathanthomas83

@colourofsound I appreciate what you're saying and you know that I'm a big lover of pedals and gear, so you know where I come from. And I wouldn't dream of calling your opinions silly, they're as valid as anyone else's on here and I appreciate your input.

I am intrigued to find out where you think the differences lie between two JCM800s for example, or two DeVille's running a couple of Thorpy distortions in front of them...there's not a whole lot of variables to differentiate between two of the same units/amps. 

I guess theres more vocalised opinion from Helix/Axe users than there is from owners of JCM800s though, so that's maybe why it could be misconceived that everyone will sound the same. I actually think it's the opposite, there are so many different opportunities/options on these thigs that it allows for lots of weird and wonderful possibilities to create new chains and sounds that couldn't be created with analog rigs.

Like I said, please don't be put off replying here, your views are valid and appreciated.

colourofsound

Thanks for those kind words. I appreciate it!

I suppose there is no real logical standpoint here; its a feeling i have which is totally bias because I haven't tried out these units myself; but i have heard them in the flesh. So really, i don't have any right to comment!

To answer your question though - no, two JCM800s or Devilles won't sound noticeabley different to one another - especially if they were brand new units.

Over time, however, that could change. Cabinet warp, analog values change through use; and so on, equipment (especially amps and guitars; pedals not so much) develop their own personlity through usage; through wear and tear. So two 10 year old Devilles probably will sound different.

As I type this, it sounds ridiculous. But, i think its true. A Helix will sound exactly the same in 10 years, it is the reason why digital is excellent but also the reason why it feels 'soulless' to me. It is a double edged sword.

You see, I have already been through this once with studio gear; which is much more expensive and considerably more involved to use. I couldn't afford to buy analog compressors and EQ, so I work in the box with plugins. It is incredibly convenient, but it also can act as a crutch. You've heard the term 'fix it in the mix', right? That's a fallacy IMO, brought on by the crazy utility plugins provide. But I truly feel that if you mic an instrument properly, spend the time to obtain the knowledge to record correctly, you won't need to fix it in the mix. Plugins are supporting an attitude that implies that the most important part - capturing a musical moment - isnt important.

You can't exactly apply that to guitar gear; but I suppose I want to distance myself from a fully digital workflow. If I'm recording to digital I want the source to be as analogue as possible, haha. If that makes sense??

Another thing - i am sick of emulations of things that already exist. The industry is continually chasing old tones; similarly musicians seem obsessed with sounding like other players rather than themselves. The reason I like pedals is because new and exciting stuff is being released all the time - the Count to 5, the Sneak Attack, Chase Bliss stuff - can these unique things be emulated in a Helix or otherwise right now?

So thats where i'm coming from. And i remain fully open to the possibilty that i will try a Helix and it will be amazing and I will want one; but I'm not there yet.

Ramble over!