Best rechargeable battery for effects......lithium ion?

surfguy13

I am trying to work out if lithium ion rechargeable PP3 batteries are the best option for pedals.  There aren't a lot around but the EBL PP3s on Ebay look like good value but I'm not sure.  Is it better to stick to MI-NH?  I get conflicting answers to this question when looking online and even from the people that sell them!

Can anyone tell me if I can charge a lithium ion rechargeable in a NI-MH charger?

57Deluxe

Here are some new rechargeable types suitable for pedals:

http://www.banggood.com/ZNTER-S19-9V-400mAh-USB-Rechargeable-9V-Lipo-Battery-p-1070703.html

surfguy13

Many thanks for the link @57Deluxe, really appreciate it.  These batteries look amazing.  I assume you just use a standard USB/micro USB cable to charge?  The only thing I'm unsure about is what adaptor I use when plugging the cable into the mains......I assume a battery charger as such isn't needed so just a standard adaptor that takes a full size USB plug?  Same as I would use to charge my phone? 

57Deluxe

@surfguy13 ;; - I haven't used these yet but it seems you just use any micro USB cable and as such, can link off power packs with USB or PC etc. If your phone charger has a USB out then is no reason not to try it as the battery will only draw what is available so won't affect the charger. There are quite a few pages of user comments which might answer any concerns you have.

A techie friend of mine in Germany is using them for some of his pedals and swears by them (in German though).  Here is some of his wordage on these:
++

"These rechargeables are different from the typicel NiCad or NiMh. They have a 3,7v Lipo Cell inside (4,2V full, 3,2V empty) and and upward switching regulator, that holds the output voltage constant on 9V. Also a charge curcuit, so you can charge it via micro usb.

NiCad or NiMh are totaly different. There are two types of these. High capacity and 7 coin cells inside. These have 9,1V when full charged, but drop quickly down to 8,75V and are empty at 7V. And batterys with less capacity and 8 coin cells. These have 10,4V when full charged, but drop quickly down to 9,6V and are empty at 8V. These voltages depend also on the load on the battery and the internal resistance of the battery. So if you draw lots of current, these voltages are eaven lower. 

The Lipo Cells have nearly no internal resistance, you can draw, eaven from a small cell, an insane high current without voltage drop. With a good regulator, you can have a constant voltage over the full discharge time.

When you compare some high current cells (65C-90C) with a car battery, the car battery looks like a coin cell.

With two of these

http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__51837__Turnigy_nano_tech_Ultimate_6600mah_2S2P_90C_Hardcase_Lipo_Pack_ROAR_BRCA_Approved_.html

you can easy start a big car. These can deliver 590A without voltage drop, a good car battery "only" 200A for a very short time, till the voltage drops below 9V.

++

surfguy13

@57Deluxe ; thanks once again for all that, really helpful.  The reviews were good if a little confusing!!!    However, have ordered one and will let you know how it works out when it lands.  Looks like a great concept and if the battery is half as good as the reviews say it is then I'll definitely buy more.  Love the fact that you can just plug it into a laptop!!!

ecc83

A bit of a warning re very high current capable batteries and I include Sealed Lead Acids.

If a fault, i.e. short develops in the pedal the battery will continue to pump current into circuit and what might have been just a shorted TL072 becomes a complete burn out, PCB, the whole piggin' lot.

I have had this happen in a digital multimeter and now only use conventional alkalines inside gear.

Of course you could protect the circuit with a fuse or fusible resistor.

Under fault/short conditions SLAs swell up and can be a bugger to get out!

Dave.

surfguy13

ecc83 said:

A bit of a warning re very high current capable batteries and I include Sealed Lead Acids.

If a fault, i.e. short develops in the pedal the battery will continue to pump current into circuit and what might have been just a shorted TL072 becomes a complete burn out, PCB, the whole piggin' lot.

I have had this happen in a digital multimeter and now only use conventional alkalines inside gear.

Of course you could protect the circuit with a fuse or fusible resistor.

Under fault/short conditions SLAs swell up and can be a bugger to get out!

Dave.

Hi Dave

Bloody hell!!!!!  I had no idea that this type of issue could occur and it sounds horrendous.  I have never had an issue in the past but if this battery I have ordered is classed as 'high current capable' then I need to be aware and I appreciate the nod!

Cheers

Guy

ecc83

Hi Guy. Well, I would still be ignorant/unaware had it not happened to me. I am just relieved it was not my personal, rather expensive Fluke 83 that got fried!

Probably the best way to utilize such batteries would be in an external box? This could have multiple co-ax power outs each protected by a 1R dinky fusible R.

Thinking on, you would not wire a gadget directly to a car battery? Of course peeps DO! See them in flames on the M1 now and again!

Dave.

digitalscream

Why not just get a Warwick Rockboard LT? Better than a Volto (you can keep playing while you charge it), and better than separate batteries 'cos you don't have to pull them to charge.

Grumpyrocker

I've got one of these RockBoard by Warwick Power LT XL coming tomorrow. They are only £43.

http://www.gear4music.com/Guitar-and-Bass/RockBoard-by-Warwick-Power-LT-XL-Lithium-Ion-Rechargeable-Battery/1FV7

WarpedSounds

Would these be safe in an ebow?

surfguy13

ecc83 said:

Hi Guy. Well, I would still be ignorant/unaware had it not happened to me. I am just relieved it was not my personal, rather expensive Fluke 83 that got fried!

Probably the best way to utilize such batteries would be in an external box? This could have multiple co-ax power outs each protected by a 1R dinky fusible R.

Thinking on, you would not wire a gadget directly to a car battery? Of course peeps DO! See them in flames on the M1 now and again!

Dave.

Hi Dave

I will have to look into this idea as it does make sense.  I don't suppose there is a unit out there that fits the bill as I'm not all that technical?! 

Guy

digitalscream said:

Why not just get a Warwick Rockboard LT? Better than a Volto (you can keep playing while you charge it), and better than separate batteries 'cos you don't have to pull them to charge.

This is a really interesting bit of kit, had no idea anything like this even existed.  Thanks also for the link @Grumpyrocker.

The reason I'm using batteries in two pedals is because they don't have DC input but my biggest issue/problem is that I use a Boss RC3 A LOT and when I connect it to the power brick I use it makes the most incredibly irritating noise.  No idea at all why or where the noise comes from but it's unusable, particularly at volume.  So, I have no choice but to use use the Boss with a battery as the noise disappears completely.  I've tried everything I can think of to get rid of the noise when the pedal is hooked up to the brick but no joy.  Sooooooo....I wonder if I might have the same problem with the Warwick Rockboard LT?

Grumpyrocker

I ordered mine due to horrible FX loop noise. My pedal board is fine before an amp. But if I put it in a loop I get nasty ground hum and other noise. However if I battery power then the noise goes away. Hence buying this new battery PSU for the whole board.

surfguy13

Grumpyrocker said:

I ordered mine due to horrible FX loop noise. My pedal board is fine before an amp. But if I put it in a loop I get nasty ground hum and other noise. However if I battery power then the noise goes away. Hence buying this new battery PSU for the whole board.

So is it just the loop that causes the problem?  Like you, my pedals are fine without a looper in the circuit but as soon as a lopper is installed the noise appears.  However, I have a Ditto too and that functions perfectly without any loop noise.  very strange.  Again as with you, the noise from the Boss RC3 disappears when the pedal is on battery power.  I'm not quite sure that I understand how this new battery PSU is different from a conventional PSU but if it works and I get zero noise then I guess I don't need to understand!! 

Grumpyrocker

I have some mains hum in front of the amp, but nothing too bad. But in the loop it's horrible. The loop on my Ironheart is pretty noisy, but I have same mains issue in the loops of my other amps. I do have an RC3 at the end of my board. 

The reason a battery PSU eliminates this noise is because there's no path back to earth as there is if you've got your pedals plugged into a power socket. 

surfguy13

Thanks for explaining this!  Also interesting that you have an RC3 as the last pedal on your board.  I think it's a no brainer, I need to buy one of the LT XLs and hopefully that'll be it!!!

Grumpyrocker

My RockBoard by Warwick Power LT XL arrived yesterday. Having charged it last night I've just been trying it for the first time. I'm super impressed. It just works. Don't know how long the charge will last, but in terms of taming the effects loop hum it does the job. Obviously it doesn't stop noisy pedals being noisy, but it removes the ground loop from the equation.

The only thing I'd change about it is I'd add an on/off switch. It's just always on when connected to effects, so I need to unplug it from the daisy chain when I want to stop. 

mart

Grumpyrocker said:

...
The only thing I'd change about it is I'd add an on/off switch. It's just always on when connected to effects, so I need to unplug it from the daisy chain when I want to stop. 

Isn't that an on-off button on the top? That's how it looks from the photos, but I haven't seen one in the flesh.

57Deluxe

As a slight aside; I bought one of these for when I want say, tape echo in the FX loop with a NANO pedal and when using dirt pedals for that 60s Lo-Fi sound in front and don't want to tie up guitar leads to reach to the FX Loop jacks from the pedal power on the floor...

http://i64.tinypic.com/244acyx.jpg

Grumpyrocker

mart said:

Grumpyrocker said:

...
The only thing I'd change about it is I'd add an on/off switch. It's just always on when connected to effects, so I need to unplug it from the daisy chain when I want to stop. 

Isn't that an on-off button on the top? That's how it looks from the photos, but I haven't seen one in the flesh.

You'd think so - it would have been the sensible choice. But it isn't and on/off switch. It's a way of getting it to display the battery level for a few seconds if you don't have it plugged into anything. 

mart

Oh, ok. I suppose it is useful to be able to see how charged it is. But it's pretty stupid to use the usual power symbol to label this.