Subs: we got one but do we need it?

Jetfire

We mainly use 2 x mackie tops just for vocals. we occasionally use the di out on my guitar, our bass player dis and we have a bass drum mic too but we rarely mic them up.  would a sub be needed for the full set up as described? any benefit in pubs etc. 

pintspiller

Certainly with the bass guitar going into it, yes.

simonk

Helps carry the kick more than anything.

Roland

A sub will stop you kicking the shit out of the Mackies.

viz

Makes for a much more pleasurable experience for the audience. 

Danny1969

Are you using SRM450 Mackie tops ? 
If so engaging the high pass filter on the rear panel and making sure the contour switch is out will let the sub handle all the low and the tops handle everything above 80hz or so ........ that makes life easier for the tops and adds a lot more weight to the kick and bass guitar (if needed) 

If you don't mic the kick or di the bass then no the sub is pointless as (disregarding keys \ samplers and such) nothing else really needs to extend below 100hz or so

I tend to use subs in small pubs purely because the pole goes in the top of the sub. the lights go on the pole then the top speaker sits on top of the pole which is less hassle than using a tripod stand but they aren't really necessary in small venues 

For really small venues I've started to only use one top All helps in terms of space and packing up

ICBM

Unless you can't physically get it into the car/van along with the other stuff, I would always take the sub if you have it. Possibly not if it's strictly an acoustic guitar/vocal gig, but definitely if it's anything with kick drum or bass - as said it will take some stress away from the tops by removing the need to make them produce deep lows, and the overall mix will be cleaner and clearer. Even if really nothing goes through it except the bass, it's worth it.

Jetfire

We are indeed using srm450s  

ESBlonde

Jetfire said:

We are indeed using srm450s  

OK, so just because you can't hear low frequencies efficiently from these cabs doesn't mean they aren't taxing themselves trying to reproduce them. In theory modern Digital processing should take away this problem, but without knowing for sure I would not be feeding lots of bass into the tops.

Depending on what mixer you have and how you run things, you might look into a process called Aux fed subs. Apart from a cable or two there should be no additional gear needed and the Kleen punch from the subs which only get those chanels bearing bass (Kick/Bass guitar/keys) is quite marked in contrast (the same principle as not feeding bass to the tops, the subs get only those instrumnts that contain tone and are therefore more efficient). If you have a compact mixer with no spare Aux feeds this isn't possible though.

welshboyo

@Danny1969

Sorry to hijack the thread but what size subs do you recommend with the Mackies? We have both 18's and 15's at our disposal and are struggling with some boom at times - we mainly use the 18's but I think the 15's (when they get an airing) sound a bit more musical..if that makes sense???!! 

Danny1969

It depends what you want them to do ... the subs are generally only used for things below about 80Hz so they add a lot of weight and thump to kick drum and bass guitar but nothing else is gonna come out of them. If it's a small venue the 15's do add something but there's no substitute for size at that price point 

I prefer the 18"  if used with the 450's ..... keep the contour button out and the high pass \ low cut button in on the 450's when you use them with subs

With any PA speaker though you only get the best out of them with the processing on the desk. If you have something modern and digital then you can use the EQ and compressors to get the kick and bass guitar under tight control ... that makes life easier for the speakers and cleans up the sound immensely. 

Jetfire

Tbh, we have brought our 15 inch sub a few times and thought better of using them. Sometimes space is an issue so we dont bother. 

If yiu were using just one sub, wheres the best place on stage for it?

welshboyo

Jetfire said:

Tbh, we have brought our 15 inch sub a few times and thought better of using them. Sometimes space is an issue so we dont bother. 

If yiu were using just one sub, wheres the best place on stage for it?

Might be wrong but Subs are non-directional so it doesn't really matter.

Thanks for the advice @Danny1969 I think you have hit the nail on the head with compression or more the case the lack of it on the low end - our Bass Player tends to keep his on stage very low and leaves the FOH do the work, however, I'm starting to wonder if the boominess we are experiencing is due to the lack of control on that bottom end!!

We are using a Mackie DL32R so should be able to get quite granular with things, might also try AUX feeding the Subs instead of the usual daisy chain we use

Jetfire

@welshboyo  does your desk have a dedicated monitor out? We have a mackie desk and theres only the aux out for our monitors?

welshboyo

@jetfire I think (!!) it has both monitor out and 10 x AUX outs and my understanding is that the monitor out is not used on ours as we use the AUX's for IEM's.

We are as we speak setting this new mixer up so I might have a better idea in a few hours LOL!!

Jetfire

Ahh makes sense. We have 2 x aux out which we use for monitors. Id heard about subs being omnidirectional but wondered if stage front or back, left or right mattered...

welshboyo

Ours normally live under the tops

Jetfire

Is it just one sub you have?

welshboyo

@Jetfire

we have 2 but it normally depends on size of venue. Whether we need both is another argument!!! 

Jetfire

We've had the argument if we need one.. our bassist is lazy and wont carry it. Its his bass cab or the sub as he'll go through the PA which our singer says shes fine with as long as the sub is connected. So just shipped the sub off to his house now rather than in my tiny guitar room

mike257

welshboyo said:

Jetfire said:

Tbh, we have brought our 15 inch sub a few times and thought better of using them. Sometimes space is an issue so we dont bother. 

If yiu were using just one sub, wheres the best place on stage for it?

Might be wrong but Subs are non-directional so it doesn't really matter.

Thanks for the advice @Danny1969 I think you have hit the nail on the head with compression or more the case the lack of it on the low end - our Bass Player tends to keep his on stage very low and leaves the FOH do the work, however, I'm starting to wonder if the boominess we are experiencing is due to the lack of control on that bottom end!!

We are using a Mackie DL32R so should be able to get quite granular with things, might also try AUX feeding the Subs instead of the usual daisy chain we use

The absolute best thing you could do to deal with the boominess (if you aren't already) is to make judicious use of the high pass filter on each and every input channel. Anything that isn't a kick drum, floor tom, bass guitar or full-range playback source can usually be high-passed from at least 100Hz. Vocal mics can often benefit from an even higher HPF frequency.

Small analogue desks sometimes have a fixed one, often at 80Hz or 100Hz, but almost every digital desk will have a completely variable one on each channel so you can filter off unnecessary low end from each source. A great way to quickly clean up your mix and get your subs working more efficiently as they aren't wasting energy trying to reproduce low end content that doesn't need to be there.