Rule of thumb? Pickup ingredients

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So I am looking at changing the pickups on my MIJ Jaguar.

Is there a set rule? 

For instance does a higher output always make a pickup more shrill/Trebbly/louder?

Magnets? What's with the variants of alnico and are ceramics always dismissed with good reason?

Does it matter if it is scatter wound?  

My main reason for this search is that my pickups are not potted and with a bit of dirt can cause dogs to weep in agony.

I know these could be potted but I am exploring all my options.

Thanks in advance
The Bigsby was the first successful design of what is now called a whammy bar or tremolo arm, although vibrato is the technically correct term for the musical effect it produces. In standard usage, tremolo is a rapid fluctuation of the volume of a note, while vibrato is a fluctuation in pitch. The origin of this nonstandard usage of the term by electric guitarists is attributed to Leo Fender, who also used the term “vibrato” to refer to what is really a tremolo effect.
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  • Dave_McDave_Mc Frets: 2328
    edited January 2014
    Ash/Weasel could help way better than I can, obviously.

    Since no-one has answered I'll give some very basic rule of thumb type advice which (I hope) is right.

    Everything else being equal, there are certain things which will mean the (near enough) same thing in most instances- problem is, everything else is very rarely equal :))

    Higher output normally makes things darker, not treblier. Though you can adjust elsewhere in the pickup design to compensate. Bear in mind if you're going by DC resistance as a surrogate for output, that's affected by the gauge of wire the pickup is wound with, you can only compare DC resistances if they use the same wire gauge.

    Again, this is everything else being equal:

    Alnico II tends to be smooth but can mush up with too much distortion

    I think Alnico III is the lowest output of the alnicos

    Alnico V is higher output, a nice middle ground between sweet vintage tones  of alnico II and the balls to the wall high gain tones of ceramic. possibly the one to go for for versatility.

    Ceramic tends to be used for high output pickups, arguably less versatile than alnico but (again arguably) great if you need a one-trick pony hard rock/metal pickup. (but again like everything else you can compensate and could likely make a ceramic pickup which worked well for lower gain tones, too)

    I don't have any experience with alnico IV or 8- from what I hear (may be wrong) alnico IV is good for vintage tones with a bit more bite than II but more vintage sounding than V, and 8 is supposedly like V on steroids. As I said, though, no experience with those.

    Scatterwound- dunno. Most of the pickups I've really liked (not all) have been handwound, but whether that's because they were handwound or because I just liked the pickup design better, I obviously have no idea.

    I guess the thing is you kind of have to judge each pickup on its own merits, but once you get used to reading specs and descriptions you can sort of make an educated guess about what to go for, too.
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  • yeah, what he said! ;-) 

    have a wisdom sir
    How very rock and roll
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  • Dave_McDave_Mc Frets: 2328
    Thanks :)

    Check what I've written is correct, though, hopefully ash or someone else who knows about pickups will turn up before too long. :))
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  • blueskunkblueskunk Frets: 2867
    Yeah another one for ash.

    What i will say is i changed my jap pickups in my jaguar to Seymour Duncan's quarter pounders and it so much improved the tone both clean and dirty and eveything in between. :)

    Bet Ash could make u some minters.
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  • ThePrettyDamnedThePrettyDamned Frets: 7472
    edited January 2014
    It was either oil city or bulldog that told me, particularly in the higher output world, hand scatter winding can make the difference between a decent high output pickup that's a touch shrill and an awesome pickup that has a nice rounded top end that won't tire your ears.

    Hopefully they'll be a long soon, or mojo... Bat sign!
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  • if you are looking specifically for jaguar pickup recommendations head over to shortscale.org

    its a wild unchartered corner of the internet but they are fucking hilarious and what those guys don't know about the 24" instrument isn't worth knowing!
    How very rock and roll
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  • not really after a recommendation per say (although they never hurt), just trying to understand it all really.
    My Jaguar just happened to be the case in point.

    I think if I spend my money I will give the boutique guys a shout (UK)

    Knowing the crowd over at shortscale and offset they will all say Novaks and Lollars.
    The Bigsby was the first successful design of what is now called a whammy bar or tremolo arm, although vibrato is the technically correct term for the musical effect it produces. In standard usage, tremolo is a rapid fluctuation of the volume of a note, while vibrato is a fluctuation in pitch. The origin of this nonstandard usage of the term by electric guitarists is attributed to Leo Fender, who also used the term “vibrato” to refer to what is really a tremolo effect.
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  • meltedbuzzboxmeltedbuzzbox Frets: 10337
    edited January 2014
    Ash is slower than expected, 

    I will put this down

    image
    The Bigsby was the first successful design of what is now called a whammy bar or tremolo arm, although vibrato is the technically correct term for the musical effect it produces. In standard usage, tremolo is a rapid fluctuation of the volume of a note, while vibrato is a fluctuation in pitch. The origin of this nonstandard usage of the term by electric guitarists is attributed to Leo Fender, who also used the term “vibrato” to refer to what is really a tremolo effect.
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  • OilCityPickupsOilCityPickups Frets: 9984
    edited January 2014 tFB Trader
    Dave_Mc said:
    Ash/Weasel could help way better than I can, obviously.

    Since no-one has answered I'll give some very basic rule of thumb type advice which (I hope) is right.

    Everything else being equal, there are certain things which will mean the (near enough) same thing in most instances- problem is, everything else is very rarely equal :))

    Higher output normally makes things darker, not treblier. Though you can adjust elsewhere in the pickup design to compensate. Bear in mind if you're going by DC resistance as a surrogate for output, that's affected by the gauge of wire the pickup is wound with, you can only compare DC resistances if they use the same wire gauge.

    Again, this is everything else being equal:

    Alnico II tends to be smooth but can mush up with too much distortion

    I think Alnico III is the lowest output of the alnicos

    Alnico V is higher output, a nice middle ground between sweet vintage tones  of alnico II and the balls to the wall high gain tones of ceramic. possibly the one to go for for versatility.

    Ceramic tends to be used for high output pickups, arguably less versatile than alnico but (again arguably) great if you need a one-trick pony hard rock/metal pickup. (but again like everything else you can compensate and could likely make a ceramic pickup which worked well for lower gain tones, too)

    I don't have any experience with alnico IV or 8- from what I hear (may be wrong) alnico IV is good for vintage tones with a bit more bite than II but more vintage sounding than V, and 8 is supposedly like V on steroids. As I said, though, no experience with those.

    Scatterwound- dunno. Most of the pickups I've really liked (not all) have been handwound, but whether that's because they were handwound or because I just liked the pickup design better, I obviously have no idea.

    I guess the thing is you kind of have to judge each pickup on its own merits, but once you get used to reading specs and descriptions you can sort of make an educated guess about what to go for, too.
    Pretty much bang on the money there ... and as well as I could put it :)
    Hand wound/scatter wound pickups have the advantage of not filtering out as many top and upper mid frequencies as machine laid pickups. This is because the wire layers cross at random and wide angles ... so a build up of capacitance due to close parallel coils doesn't happen in the same way. also the 'skin effect' of fine wire is lessened. All this means that hand wound pickups are more 'open' sounding, with better reproduction of harmonics.
    As to potting ... a pickup has to be super well-made to get away without a bit of wax ... and personally, if you are going to add a lot of gain I'd avoid un-potted!
    Mind you I have a soft spot for producing unpotted low output humbuckers as @ThePrettyDamned will tell you :)
    Oh, and 'ceramic' is not evil ... it's just how some people design pickups to use it that's wrong! Unless suitable allowances are made in the design ceramic magnets can sound harsh and screechy ... or overly grainy and 'tizzy'. There have been some really brilliant ceramic magnet pickups ... in fact my favorite pickup of all time ... the original 70s DiMarzio Super Distortion has three ceramic magnets in each pickup and never sounds harsh! The bad rep ceramic has comes largely from cheap, Chinese made, high output humbuckers ... that are slung together rather than designed.

    See the Weasel lure worked :))
    Professional pickup winder, horse-testpilot and recovering Chocolate Hobnob addict.
    Formerly TheGuitarWeasel ... Oil City Pickups  ... Oil City Blog 7 String.org profile and message  

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  • meltedbuzzbox;139831" said:

    Knowing the crowd over at shortscale and offset they will all say Novaks and Lollars.
    You're thinking of offsetguitars.com. Shortscale is the most unpretentious and least cork sniffy place online.

    For high gain think about rail pickups too, sound pretty good in the bridge of a jag.
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  • yeah short scale is DEFINATELY not cork sniffer territory. in fact as i understand they are mercilessly pilloried across the internet for their lack of pretentiousness. 

    great guys
    How very rock and roll
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  • I'm not really a gain monster but the jag is thinline as well and it all seems to cause a bit of a squeal 

    so if I want to use it live I will need to do something to it
    The Bigsby was the first successful design of what is now called a whammy bar or tremolo arm, although vibrato is the technically correct term for the musical effect it produces. In standard usage, tremolo is a rapid fluctuation of the volume of a note, while vibrato is a fluctuation in pitch. The origin of this nonstandard usage of the term by electric guitarists is attributed to Leo Fender, who also used the term “vibrato” to refer to what is really a tremolo effect.
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  • To shortscale then I guess for a visit. 

    no jag pickups on oilcity :-(

    Mr Weasel sir, is this something you can address?
    The Bigsby was the first successful design of what is now called a whammy bar or tremolo arm, although vibrato is the technically correct term for the musical effect it produces. In standard usage, tremolo is a rapid fluctuation of the volume of a note, while vibrato is a fluctuation in pitch. The origin of this nonstandard usage of the term by electric guitarists is attributed to Leo Fender, who also used the term “vibrato” to refer to what is really a tremolo effect.
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  • a thin line jag? mmmmmm nice work sir
    How very rock and roll
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  • OilCityPickupsOilCityPickups Frets: 9984
    tFB Trader
    To shortscale then I guess for a visit. 

    no jag pickups on oilcity :-(

    Mr Weasel sir, is this something you can address?
    I roll Jag pickups to special order ... and Mustang .... and Jizz-Spreaders ( :) )
    I'll get round to putting them up on line  ... honest ... It's just I'm soooooooo busy at the moment .....
    Professional pickup winder, horse-testpilot and recovering Chocolate Hobnob addict.
    Formerly TheGuitarWeasel ... Oil City Pickups  ... Oil City Blog 7 String.org profile and message  

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  • Dave_McDave_Mc Frets: 2328
    Pretty much bang on the money there ... and as well as I could put it :)
    Thanks :) Obviously you know way more than me, though, I was just posting the very, very basic stuff :))

    LOL at the weasel lure too :))
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  • @theguitarweasel, yup, love my unpotted cow-t-ron! I can really crank volume and gain and I've yet to hear it get out of control screechy. So big plus points there! Must be 'super well made' ;)

    No idea if it makes any difference to the tone, but I figured, Ash designed it to be unpotted so why not? As it is, it's fantastic and handles some pretty high gain stuff really well - it's got quite a lot of focus to it which really lends itself to muted stuff, clean or dirty. Blows me away everytime I use it, and goes great with a strat neck pickup!
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  • GuitarMonkeyGuitarMonkey Frets: 1883
    edited January 2014
    Apart from flux strength, what properties of the magnet material affect the sound?
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  • OilCityPickupsOilCityPickups Frets: 9984
    tFB Trader

    Apart from flux strength, what properties of the magnet material affect the sound?
    The ratio of aluminum to nickel to cobalt changes the eddy currents in the magnets themselves and changes their resonant peak ... and thus how they 'filter' the sound. This is completely independent of their magnetic strength.
    Professional pickup winder, horse-testpilot and recovering Chocolate Hobnob addict.
    Formerly TheGuitarWeasel ... Oil City Pickups  ... Oil City Blog 7 String.org profile and message  

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  • MistergMisterg Frets: 293
    The ratio of aluminum to nickel to cobalt changes the eddy currents in the magnets themselves ...
    Ahh... Thank you - another piece of the jigsaw appears :)

    Wisedom.
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