What is “case candy” worth?

DLM

Apologies in advance for keeping things vague. You’ll see why.

I’ve just bought a new guitar. Via eBay, from an established bricks-and-mortar store. Had a low-ball offer accepted. 18% under the asking. Sold as brand new in original packaging. One miniscule blemish on headstock tip, case bears a few scratches. Fine for the price.

But the wrong vibrato arm was supplied. Wrong arm, wrong bushing, wrong retainer nut. The supplied one sort of fits, but is wobbly and doesn’t feel right.

I checked the eBay photos, these show the correct original parts. Also, they show two hang tags and an understring tag that were not supplied. And a manufacturer-branded guitar strap that was not supplied, and was even mentioned in the auction text. The distributor’s final-check hang tag made it to me, as did the owner’s manual and the OEM tools.  

I notified the store/seller via eBay message, and waited three days. Having heard nothing, I e-mailed the shop directly and got an apologetic reply in a couple of hours. They said they were in the process of ordering the correct “hardware”, but that the tags were gone and no longer available. The strap was not mentioned, that’s not hardware IMO. They offered to throw in a set of whatever strings I use – or an equivalent item – by way of recompense.

Now this is a limited edition guitar, one small run a few years ago. Whatever strings one uses they don’t cost more than about a tenner. Surely the loss of resale value caused by not having the full “case candy” is greater than that?

I’m not happy. But if I return the guitar and buy elsewhere I can either pay the extra 18% and get a shop-soiled B-stock, or an extra 17% on top of that (so 35%) for a new-in-box model with the correct hardware and “factory accessories”, though it’s unclear whether this also includes the hang tags, these are not pictured or mentioned. There’s even another available for 100% more than I paid (!), new with hardware, case and strap, but its hang-tag status is unclear.

I wanted the guitar to play, not to leave mint as an “investment”, but the shop has clearly not provided the item as described or pictured.

What do you guys think? I got a bargain, right enough.

Caveat: People I know very well worked there for years and were forced out after frankly terrible treatment. Intimately familiar with the way business was done there in the past, I opted to buy via eBay for the extra buyer protection, instead of ringing and saying “Remember me? Mates’ rates please”.

Gassage

I would hang them out to dry. You have legally no obligation to accept any compromise.

If they refuse, I'd suggest 20% off is a fair deal. Raise an eBay complaint and sit tight.

As an example, when I sold my DG Strat, i wanted to keep the book. I advertised it without, couldn't sell it, put it back and it was gone in a minute.

Gassage

By the way, the power of 'name and shame' is big.

thomasross20

Sounds like it's mainly the hang tags that are in question.. you can get a strap anywhere (not the special one but hey), they're offering the Wang bar and will throw in strings. 
How strongly do you feel about the hang tags?

TBH it's a tad disappointing. Depends how much you like the guitar at the price you paid. 

FelineGuitars

What brand of guitar are we talking about here...a PRS I would guess as very few other brands attract the "it's worthless without the hangtags" conversation.

guitars4you

FelineGuitars said:

What brand of guitar are we talking about here...a PRS I would guess as very few other brands attract the "it's worthless without the hangtags" conversation.

sometimes baffles me the swing tag on a PRS as all the info and more is on the modcat bar code in the pick up cavity anyway - I know it is nice to have it but somewhat of a 'big deal' if is not there

However in this instance if the pics and text state that case candy/tags are included then that should be the case

Sync

Are you playing the guitar or displaying the guitar?

If it is to be a working guitar and a keeper then it's less of an issue, especially if it was a good price.

If you are considering re sale; then it is important to many buyers.  

If it's a PRS, then I know plenty of people who won't even look at them unless it is complete like the day it came out of the final checking, tags, tickets and all.

thomasross20

Oh crap, I sold the 59/09 pups that came with my PRS. Guess that's a keeper now!

TimmyO

To me? They'd be worth nothing - I don't understand the fascination for anyone buying used (however mint) 

In your scenario I'd at least ask them to throw in a strap of equivalent value, as that *is* material (to me). They are already sorting the trem arm.

Of course you could just ping it back for a full refund

Strangefan

thomasross20 said:

Oh crap, I sold the 59/09 pups that came with my PRS. Guess that's a keeper now!




Yup it's worth all of £4.80.now.

Dave_Mc

That's very annoying. That's happened to me a couple of times, too- a bass I bought (new, from a dealer) on Ebay and a bass I bought online (new) from a shop didn't come with the gigbag they were meant to come with. In neither case was the bag specifically mentioned, but at the same time they're meant to come with them new... In the end I kept them, because like you, I got a good deal and figured that I'd be biting off my nose to spite my face sending them back, but that didn't mean I was ok with it either... Plus I wasn't really buying anything where I think it'd have made much of a difference (I wasn't planning on selling them on), either.

Also I think the bass from the online shop was missing the hang tags, too. The shop offered to send them out, and did. A few days later an empty envelope arrived which had opened in the post...

DLM

Thanks for the replies, chaps.

@gassage You mean a further 20% off if they fail to come up with the hardware strap and tags?

I’m not keen on naming and shaming. The interpersonal connections are too many in this case. And the knowledge I hold too great. I don’t want to take a dip with my feet set in concrete. Speakers Corner too is accessible to anyone who makes an account.

I don’t want to mention the brand name on the forum, the guitar is rare enough that the trader would be obvious.

@guitars4you The text only mentions the strap and case. The wang should be obvious, but the tags are not mentioned, only shown clearly in the pics.

@Sync The idea is to play the thing. Live, too, if I can make that happen again. Band’s on a hiatus of sorts.

@TimmyO It’s not about me, Tim. It’s about any potential buyer, even years later. As I stated in my OP, getting a full refund and replacing the guitar from elsewhere would leave me very much out of pocket. I think the most expensive offer mentioned above was roughly the list price when the guitar was released. The strap that came with the guitar won’t be that special, but surely has a value of more than a single set of strings. I hope they really can sort the hardware, this stuff is super specific and I’d be out at least 60 if I try to order it myself.

ICBM

thomasross20 said:

Sounds like it's mainly the hang tags that are in question.. you can get a strap anywhere (not the special one but hey), they're offering the Wang bar and will throw in strings.

I think exactly the opposite - the hang tags are of no real value, but the correct arm and a nice strap definitely are, and were supposed to be included. (If the arm needs a bushing and a retainer nut, it's something like a Firebird or a Flying V with the Maestro Vibrola, not a PRS.)

My guess is that this guitar is not new at all, and has been sold and returned with the first buyer 'mislaying' (ie keeping) the missing stuff, dinging the headstock and scuffing the case.

Garthy

Do you honestly believe some tags are worth 20% rrp? I'd be most concerned about the arm and strap as the first actually matters and the second is worth more than the strings.

FelineGuitars

I agree that if a guitar is shown in a listing with the case candy and tags etc, you do expect to get the new boxed version with all the gubbins and not the shop floor display model without any of the case candy or maybe with dings, scratches, rusty strings and greasy fingerprints etc
This has happened to me with both Guitar Guitar and DV24/7 and naturally I raised it as an issue and eventually returned the goods.

It may be that they got the shop junior to do it and his mind was not really on the task and your complaint would raise a serious training issue that should be addressed, as was surely the case with my experience.

My viewpoint on guitars is a little different to most as I work as a repairer of guitars
An inspection ticket is meaningless once the guitar is more than 12 months old anyway as it would really only be useful to the manufacturer if goods had gone out that were substandard and should not have passed final inspection.
I know that a guitar goes through a lot of changes once it goes out into the world because it's made from wood and wood SHRINKS. So set-up and straightness/evenness of necks can change, and it doesn't matter that it had a Plek treatment at the factory 2 years ago when it was made if the neck has altered by shrinkage.

I do believe that the whole hangtag and case candy thing or maybe the absence of one of them has been created by buyers wanting to knock a few quid of a secondhand sale and in some circles it has become a be-all and end-all of trading terms.

Lets say you bought a posh guitar and it came in a case with all the candy, tags etc.
Because you travel around a lot you put the case and all it's gubbins in the cupboard and the guitar went in your gigbag and then got slung around, subjected to touring abuse , left in sub zero temperatures in a lock up or the boot of your car etc etc.

2 years later you choose to sell the guitar on, and put it in it's original still factory fresh case with all the tags and gubbins and list it . 

The buyer gets all excited because the 'kit" seems new and as if it just left the shop. 

However the guitar has had 2 years hard living . 

Do the presence of tags and case candy just not give a false impression of how fresh the guitar will be?

Surely that stuff was lovely when you bought the guitar because you had a new strap and maybe a quality lead with manufacturers logo on it and it ensured that you'd be getting the best experience from your new guitar.

guitars4you

FelineGuitars said:

I agree that if a guitar is shown in a listing with the case candy and tags etc, you do expect to get the new boxed version with all the gubbins and not the shop floor display model without any of the case candy or maybe with dings, scratches, rusty strings and greasy fingerprints etc

It may be that they got the shop junior to do it and his mind was not really on the task and your complaint would raise a serious training issue that should be addressed, as was surely the case with my experience.

I tend to agree with this and have a post on my web site about 'dirty scruffy guitars' in stock that covers some of this - In all but a few exceptions, the guitars are sent to the dealer with a clean case and appropriate candy and if that is how it is shown in the pics and listed accordingly then that is how it should be sold - What happens to the case candy 5-10 years later is  a different story - But the store should be held accountable to look after such 'extras'

ICBM

FelineGuitars said:

I agree that if a guitar is shown in a listing with the case candy and tags etc, you do expect to get the new boxed version with all the gubbins and not the shop floor display model without any of the case candy or maybe with dings, scratches, rusty strings and greasy fingerprints etc
This has happened to me with both Guitar Guitar and DV24/7 and naturally I raised it as an issue and eventually returned the goods.

It may be that they got the shop junior to do it and his mind was not really on the task and your complaint would raise a serious training issue that should be addressed, as was surely the case with my experience.

My viewpoint on guitars is a little different to most as I work as a repairer of guitars
An inspection ticket is meaningless once the guitar is more than 12 months old anyway as it would really only be useful to the manufacturer if goods had gone out that were substandard and should not have passed final inspection.
I know that a guitar goes through a lot of changes once it goes out into the world because it's made from wood and wood SHRINKS. So set-up and straightness/evenness of necks can change, and it doesn't matter that it had a Plek treatment at the factory 2 years ago when it was made if the neck has altered by shrinkage.

I do believe that the whole hangtag and case candy thing or maybe the absence of one of them has been created by buyers wanting to knock a few quid of a secondhand sale and in some circles it has become a be-all and end-all of trading terms.

Lets say you bought a posh guitar and it came in a case with all the candy, tags etc.
Because you travel around a lot you put the case and all it's gubbins in the cupboard and the guitar went in your gigbag and then got slung around, subjected to touring abuse , left in sub zero temperatures in a lock up or the boot of your car etc etc.

2 years later you choose to sell the guitar on, and put it in it's original still factory fresh case with all the tags and gubbins and list it . 

The buyer gets all excited because the 'kit" seems new and as if it just left the shop. 

However the guitar has had 2 years hard living . 

Do the presence of tags and case candy just not give a false impression of how fresh the guitar will be?

Surely that stuff was lovely when you bought the guitar because you had a new strap and maybe a quality lead with manufacturers logo on it and it ensured that you'd be getting the best experience from your new guitar.

That, exactly.

Not only that, the 'case candy' is meaningless when it comes to authenticating an expensive guitar because it's far easier to fake a printed piece of cardboard than it is to fake a guitar to anything like the same standard.

So I really do not get the obsession with it at all.

Nevertheless, a new guitar that is shown with it in the listing should be supplied with it.

Gassage

The contrary argument is not having them reduces your market of people who will buy hugely.

ICBM

Gassage said:

The contrary argument is not having them reduces your market of people who will buy hugely.

Not as far as I've seen, but perhaps it's different when people are buying in shops. Or maybe just the shops I've worked for, I don't know! I've certainly seen buyers ask whether it's there or look in the case, but I've never seen anyone change their mind about a guitar or ask for a price reduction if it isn't.

Gassage

ICBM said:

Gassage said:

The contrary argument is not having them reduces your market of people who will buy hugely.

Not as far as I've seen, but perhaps it's different when people are buying in shops. Or maybe just the shops I've worked for, I don't know! I've certainly seen buyers ask whether it's there or look in the case, but I've never seen anyone change their mind about a guitar or ask for a price reduction if it isn't.

On another note, one thing I've wanted to do is get the vintage swings and so on for my 1960.

Any ideas?

ICBM

Gassage said:

On another note, one thing I've wanted to do is get the vintage swings and so on for my 1960.

Any ideas?

Ebay in the US, or get some repros printed for about 1% of the price .