The Application of Bass Specs?

Bellycaster

Whenever I want to drool at Basses, I usually visit this page.

http://www.music-man.com/instruments/basses.html

I've always been blown away by the beauty of MM Basses. I don't even play Bass, but have always had a deep respect for the players and the wonderful spectrum of sounds that have been blasted out of these big planks and one day I will own one.

The Point of the thread, oh yes, I noticed with the 2 versions of the Stingray (theeeeee most gorgeous looking Bass ever to be created) - and by versions I mean Classic and Modern, not 4,5,6 string etc.

The Classic has a 7.5 inch radius and the other has an 11 inch radius.

WHY THE BIG DIFFERENCE???

If I was itching to be a Slap Bass player, which radius does that style suit best?

I understand 6 string Guitar specs very well, I'm very anal about them(no surprise there), and by that you would think that understanding Bass specs would simply follow suit, but it doesn't and I don't know what styles of playing suit which specs on a Bass.

ie: A nippy shredder guitarist is going to want a far less severe radius than a old school bluesy type of guy. Massive generalization I know but you get the gist.

Also I know exactly what the pick up positions, quantities, configs on a 6 string guitar would give me, but what do Bass players look for in pick up configs etc. I know the bridge pick up is sharper/Brighter and neck pick up is fuller/rounder etc, but what applications do Bass players use these configs, even middle pick ups on a Bass must have a "Genre" they are mostly used in.

Sorry for the rough arse generalization of all things holy and the crap way I try to explain myself, but I think you grab the meaning of this thread.

Take it away Bassists, edumacate me.

:-D

ICBM

Not sure about the fingerboard radius - and I do play bass! - I've never really thought about it like that since you don't usually bend strings on a bass, which is mostly where the limitation of small-radius boards shows with a guitar.

But there's a more important difference between the modern and classic Stingray…

The classic has a two-band EQ preamp, the modern a three-band. You would think that makes the modern one better… no. The two-band just sounds better. I don't know why (I've never actually looked at the schematics) but it just does.

ThePrettyDamned

I'm with ICBM on this.

It's not that the 3 band sounds bad (I have a sub with the 3 band active and it's fantastic) but the 2 band seems to work better unless you want really really growly mids, which is an awesome sound but not for everyone. Very nice to scoop mids out for slap, too, but the 2 band seems happy in most positions with less dialling.

Radius on bass is more for comfort. I like a more rounded one where I prefer flatter guitar necks because I've got diddy hands.

Other than that, you know that either are going to be amazing instruments.

Dave_Mc

Great idea for a thread- I recently got a bass and while I'm (slowly) picking up on things by reading around online, it'd be nice to have a thread that just spells out all those "questions you were scared to ask" things.

That's interesting that the 2EQ version sounds better. Some places have deals on those "special edition" (still USA-made) 2EQ ones, were they any good? I'm always sceptical about cheaper models but sometimes they are near enough the same thing without the bling.

Also how badly do you need the neck pickup? I know most bass guitars, if they only have the one pickup, normally have a neck (more like "middle" on a guitar) pickup, but the MMs generally only have the one bridge pickup? I'm guessing because being a massive humbucker it sounds ok there? I'm guessing they know what they're doing. ) Obviously they have two pickup versions as options but for far more money...

ThePrettyDamned

Well, my mm sub only has a bridge bucker and I've never thought, Drat, I really need a neck pickup.

It's been gigged extensively - funk, pop, blues once and hard rock. Previous owner was in a death metal band.

It was excellent at all of them. I can't recommend any other bass more - subs are brilliant (this is the USA model). Bit ugly unless you get the black of white ones... Mine is blue.

The 'proper' sterling's are going to be made from pretty wood (ash, alder etc) whereas this is poplar. The necks are all stunning, though - mine is a satin black, and is stupidly comfy which is the same on every mm bass I've tried.

And the proper mm basses are, in my opinion, perfect. I would never need another bass, regardless of style. My mate has a passive USA sub, and it plays just as well and truly sounds great. He dreams of owning a sterling, and said they are generally lighter in weight than the SUB models, which is nice.

But I do prefer the 2 band eq. Love the 3 band, and dialling the mids up was awesome in the rock outfit, but the 2 band seems easier to set and more intuitive. I guess what I'm saying is if you see a SUB made in USA going cheap, get it. I paid £300 for mine from a local auction, scraped the grime off the board and it's been solid since, despite being loaned out to a few mates for gigs.

Dave_Mc

Thanks very much for the detailed reply I know they're well-regarded and probably considered to be one of the "classic" bass models, so I assumed they knew what they were doing ) Also (and I know this is silly) the single pickup version looks better I think. More classic. )

http://www.knightonmusiccentre.com/bass-guitars/musicman/music-man-stingray-2eq/prod_376.html

That's the one there (several shops have them), it says it's a limited run model. I mean it's probably academic, odds are I'll chicken out, but fantasy GAS is still fun )

ICBM

Proper Stingrays only have one pickup, four strings and three knobs.

Sorry, but I'm just an old-fashioned bugger sometimes, and some things are just *right* and should not be messed about with.

EdGrip

This is something that's been on my mind lately too, as I start to distill what I want my bass to be. It's a strange new world to a guitarist, so I've been making a note every time I hear a bass sound that I like and trying to find out what kind of bass made it. It's usually a P-bass. Today it was this video: 

(Note to self: still need to get a Vibraslap...)

Dave_Mc

ICBM said:

Proper Stingrays only have one pickup, four strings and three knobs.

Sorry, but I'm just an old-fashioned bugger sometimes, and some things are just *right* and should not be messed about with.

Yeah ) I mean I don't mind genuine improvements, I don't like when people religiously stick to stuff only because "that's the way we've always done it", but as you said, sometimes things are just "right" from the get go and there's no need to mess with them either.

I noticed in a GAK video of that Musicman that the guy testing it said it only had boost on the onboard EQ, not cut. Is that right? It doesn't sound right to me, but I'm no bassist... )

ThePrettyDamned

If you get a stingray, you'll have all the bass you'll ever need.

Mine has cut and boost, and an indent on the knobs for +/-0db.

ICBM

ThePrettyDamned said:

If you get a stingray, you'll have all the bass you'll ever need.

I actually think most bass players only need one bass.

If there's a style of music you can't play on any one of…

P-Bass

Jazz

Rick 4001

Stingray

Thunderbird

Or more or less any modern bass

I have yet to hear it!

Just pick the one that suits you best physically. For me it's the 4001. (I also have a fretless P-Bass copy, but only because it's fretless.)

I've also just looked up the schematics for the 2- and 3-band Stingray preamps… they're completely different. Both use the controls in the feedback loop of an IC gain stage - and so can both boost and cut - but the similarity ends there really. The 2-band is a simpler but quite clever and less conventional circuit. I don't just mean that it's easier to dial in - I think the actual resulting tone inherently sounds better than the 3-band… maybe because it's less 'hi-fi' and is introducing some harmonic distortion, although I'm not sure.

ThePrettyDamned

ICBM;144190" said:

ThePrettyDamned said:If you get a stingray, you'll have all the bass you'll ever need.I actually think most bass players only need one bass.

If there's a style of music you can't play on any one of…

P-BassJazzRick 4001StingrayThunderbird

Or more or less any modern bass

I have yet to hear it!

Just pick the one that suits you best physically. For me it's the 4001. (I also have a fretless P-Bass copy, but only because it's fretless.)



I've also just looked up the schematics for the 2- and 3-band Stingray preamps… they're completely different. Both use the controls in the feedback loop of an IC gain stage - and so can both boost and cut - but the similarity ends there really. The 2-band is a simpler but quite clever and less conventional circuit. I don't just mean that it's easier to dial in - I think the actual resulting tone inherently sounds better than the 3-band… maybe because it's less 'hi-fi' and is introducing some harmonic distortion, although I'm not sure.

Not surprising. The 3 band has cool sounds in it, but it's a bit harder to work. And it wouldn't surprise me if the actual tones were different regardless - but it does me fine, though I'd rather have a 2 band, having played one. The main advantage with the 3 band is the insane, fuzzy bass you can get and the amazing mids. The treble is a bit mental - you can roll it up, a bit, then is turns into a hifi sound, and gets a bit shrill. This doesn't happen to the 2 band at all, even if you max the high.

I normal roll the bass up, mids just rolled down a bit and treble slap bang on the indent, and it suits most styles.

Bellycaster

Blimey, just shows how observant I am, I never knew the Stingray had an EQ preamp built in, I just thought they were volume and tone knobs. I know different now, Lol.

When I look at Basses I am guilty of just looking at them aesthetically. There is some good opinion on here and @ICBM has mentioned the Basses I am most familiar with.

When you look at the positioning of the pick up on the Stingray(close to bridge) and the positioning on a P-Bass (more in the middle) and a Jazz Bass with 2 pick ups, I suppose that is what I thought of in terms of these Basses having completely different tonal characteristics, just an assumption, not that I have listened in depth to any comparisons.

Then you get stuff like this with 2 maaaaaaaasive pick ups right next to each other

http://www.gear4music.com/Guitar-and-Bass/Warwick-Corvette-4-String-Bass-Guitar-Natural-Oil-Finish/DN2

I knew someone who bought a Warwick years ago.

I suppose I will just have to do more listening to demos and stuff, mainly just for educating myself with Bass Guitars, but I do want one eventually.

I've always wanted to ask what those chrome pick up covers are, or are they actual pick ups, is there a pick up underneath it in the body of the guitar, never seen one up close?

You know, like this.

http://www.guitarguitar.co.uk/bass_guitars_detail.asp?stock=13010717064032

ICBM

Bellycaster said:

When you look at the positioning of the pick up on the Stingray(close to bridge) and the positioning on a P-Bass (more in the middle) and a Jazz Bass with 2 pick ups, I suppose that is what I thought of in terms of these Basses having completely different tonal characteristics, just an assumption, not that I have listened in depth to any comparisons.

The pickups and positions do have different tonal characteristics, but I still think you can EQ most of them to do much the same job! The original reason for Fender mounting the pickups nearer the bridge was to deliberately roll off the low fundamentals, which the speakers of the time wouldn't handle properly. But your ear/brain 'fills in' the missing fundamental so you still hear the note correctly. You really need a very bright-sounding pickup very close to the bridge before you start to hear it as a lot less bassy - the Jazz Bass bridge pickup for example. The Stingray pickup is so full-sounding that the position doesn't stop it having plenty of low-end.

Bellycaster said:

I've always wanted to ask what those chrome pick up covers are, or are they actual pick ups, is there a pick up underneath it in the body of the guitar, never seen one up close?

Usually a pickup under it - the original reason was as an electrical shield (it's in contact with the shielding under the pickguard via the screws), but some people like them as a hand rest… there are a *very* few basses which have them in positions other than over a pickup or the bridge.

The only one that isn't just a cover is the original Rickenbacker 'horseshoe' pickup where the 'cover' is actually the top half of the magnet poles, and is part of the pickup - the strings pass through the magnet gap, which was the way the pickup was originally designed in the 1930s before it was found not to be necessary. Later Rickenbackers have a conventional pickup and a normal cover.

Bellycaster

@ICBM

That explains that nicely, thanks. I don't those covers are for me though, but each to their own. I'm sure as you said that any decent Bass can fulfill most tones, I really love the Stingray, it just looks "The Business."

ICBM

Most people take the covers off because they get in the way. I did too, on my 'modern' Rickenbacker 4003 - it was right where I wanted to play the strings mostly. But oddly, when I traded it for my '73 4001 - which still has the later non-horsey pickup - the neck pickup on these is half an inch closer to the neck and for some reason that makes the best picking position just in front of the cover, and I'm quite happy with it on! Which I would never have expected.

I know a lot of more 'serious' bass players than I am may disagree, but I really think that the EQ on the amp, where and how you play the string, the type of strings, and whether you use a pick or not are more important than the position of the pickup, or even the sound of the pickup. Obviously there are really quite big differences between them just as there are with guitar pickups, but I just don't find it matters in a musical context. I've never not been able to get an appropriate bass tone for any kind of music I've played, except maybe with an old Gibson EB-2 where the single pickup is tight against the fingerboard and is hugely bassy… even then I just took most of it off at the amp and boosted the top-end, and got quite a rock'n'roll sound.

ThePrettyDamned

I'd agree with all of that.

My mate did a really interesting test between a Peavey milestone (!), which is his main gigging bass, and a musicman SUB USA with passive pickup.

They both sounded totally different. Somehow, both worked just as brilliantly in context. You wouldn't know which was the super cheap Chinese knock off and which was a made in USA bass, because they both sounded really good.

I think bass tone is *less* important than guitar tone - not just because I'm primarily a guitarist, but because it carries well, and all our ears need is the low thudding sound that suits what the rest of the band is playing. That's not to say it is less important in a mix - if you compare my bedroom tone to my old rehearsal tone, you'd be amazed at how much treble and mids I had to add relative to mix with the bass nicely. It'd sound horrible on its own!

I find its quite important to tune drums, particularly bass drum - when the bass drum is thudding out a low c and the bass is playing mostly in keys that have c as quite a prominent note, it can help a tight riff really come together. Strange (or not?) but true.

Of course, players like John Entwistle could still make a bass sound shrill, bright and horrible, but I think they were trying for that at the time

Dave_Mc

ICBM said:

ThePrettyDamned said:

If you get a stingray, you'll have all the bass you'll ever need.

I actually think most bass players only need one bass.

If there's a style of music you can't play on any one of…

P-Bass

Jazz

Rick 4001

Stingray

Thunderbird

Or more or less any modern bass

I have yet to hear it!

Just pick the one that suits you best physically. For me it's the 4001. (I also have a fretless P-Bass copy, but only because it's fretless.)

I've also just looked up the schematics for the 2- and 3-band Stingray preamps… they're completely different. Both use the controls in the feedback loop of an IC gain stage - and so can both boost and cut - but the similarity ends there really. The 2-band is a simpler but quite clever and less conventional circuit. I don't just mean that it's easier to dial in - I think the actual resulting tone inherently sounds better than the 3-band… maybe because it's less 'hi-fi' and is introducing some harmonic distortion, although I'm not sure.

Thanks

I'm guessing those ones you listed would be the "classic" basses? I'm kind of new to this (and possibly thinking too much like a guitarist) but that's what it looks like to me.

I mean my Vigier is frigging awesome, and I'd tend to agree with you, I haven't come across any tone I can't do yet (and I agree with you, I tend to just have both pickups on all the time and the onboard EQ flat and then adjust the tone by where I hit the string or by using a pick). I tend to stick to a very basic warm-but-cleanish type of tone. Problem is being a guitarist first I'm already a lost cause when it comes to irrational GAS and am already thinking up ways to get all the "classics"... )

Thanks for the info about the schematics of the preamps. I thought that didn't sound right in the video (though the cheaper model may well use a different preamp I suppose), boosting is the thing which requires more (active) circuitry, cutting is normally the easy bit.