Should I learn the Circle of Fifths and Major Scale Notes?

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  • Can you please delete this post? Everytime I see it I think it's about cradle of filth...
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  • I'm with the modellista camp but I LOVE that clock!
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  • notanonnotanon Frets: 170
    For all interested then I have placed the print for the circle of fifths clock at:

    http://www.clienthosting.co.uk/cof5thsToPrint.pdf

    I have rebuilt the one at wikipedia so that it is accurate and able to place onto the clock face.  The clock I bought was:

    https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B000G73YJ6

    Available in several colours there. That clock is easy to disassemble and I have put the marker for the lug to cut out on the pdf. My wife is into crafts so we had the spray glue so it wasn't messy when sticking. I printed on something like 120gsm to 200gsm paper matt but you may prefer glossy. I used photoshop paths and fonts to re-create the image, I know photoshop quite well so I generated the minutes at every 6 degrees and the 5 minute markers at every 30 degrees I may have messed up on resolution or mode but some of the 5 minute blocks seem a little fuzzy, I should at some point redo that but can't see at a distance. You should print the pdf at best quality and at 100% and that should be perfect size for the clock above. Most parts are vectors so in theory I can scale as wiki uses SVG. But I have very little time these days.

    Let me know if you need any further help.

    Released by me under creative commons inherited from Wikipedia at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Just_plain_Bill
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  • notanonnotanon Frets: 170
    I would appreciate any uploaded pictures or information of any clocks created it took me a few hours of creating the photoshop file. The one on wiki cannot be placed onto a clock, all out of place and not mathematically accurate but my favourite version at that time.
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  • ClarkyClarky Frets: 2491
    I appreciate all advice, but can anyone give specific examples of how the knowledge of it can help? Thanks in advance
    it can help with composition when you have two sections of music in different keys and need to find a way to seamlessly got from one to the other.. 
    using the cycle of 5ths or 4ths [or bits of both] is one way to build such a bridge by passing through many keys in succession until you hit the target key..
    in the sort of music I get involved with [particularly my orchestral / movie trailer / proggy stuff] this can be 'a way' to help find or contribute to a solution…

    jazzers love this sit too cos they get involved with a lot of II-V-I and VI-II-V-I progressions [which is cycle of 5ths stuff]

    will this make you a better player? nope ! !
    playing, repertoire, practice, and experimenting with the stuff you've learned to play does that…
    but it will help you think and may throw your creativity down a few paths that your intuition may not..

    play every note as if it were your first
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  • ClarkyClarky Frets: 2491
    edited January 2017

    octatonic said:
    @viz what does happen when you make the ii chord into a Major?
    Would that indicate that the key has changed? i.e the i and ii are now iv and v?
    That is called a parallel modulation- yes it means a key change.
    What is typical is a progression like this:

    Dm7 / G7 / |  Cmaj7 / / / | Cmin7 / F7 / | Bbmaj7 / / / |

    This is a ii V I in C then a parallel modulation where the Cmaj7 becomes the ii of a II V I in Bb.

    hmmm… is that right???
    EDITED: in the case above, the C chord is a <sort of> 'pivot chord' because it <sort of> belongs to both keys..
    a true pivot chord is one that belongs completely to 2 different keys.. like Em being III in C and VI in G.

    I thought parallel modulation would be something like being in C maj, then switching to Cm
    so there's a key change over the same tonic…
    you've gone and got me doubting myself now.. I reckon I need to look this up when I get a mo..

    play every note as if it were your first
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  • ClarkyClarky Frets: 2491

    Clarky said:

    octatonic said:
    @viz what does happen when you make the ii chord into a Major?
    Would that indicate that the key has changed? i.e the i and ii are now iv and v?
    That is called a parallel modulation- yes it means a key change.
    What is typical is a progression like this:

    Dm7 / G7 / |  Cmaj7 / / / | Cmin7 / F7 / | Bbmaj7 / / / |

    This is a ii V I in C then a parallel modulation where the Cmaj7 becomes the ii of a II V I in Bb.

    hmmm… is that right???
    in the case above, the C chord is a 'pivot chord' because it belong to both keys..

    I thought parallel modulation would be something like being in C maj, then switching to Cm
    so there's a key change over the same tonic…
    you've gone and got me doubting myself now.. I reckon I need to look this up when I get a mo..

    looked it up in wiki

    A parallel key modulation is a change of mode, but maintains the same tonal center. For example, one section of a composition may be in the key of E major and then modulate to E minor.
    play every note as if it were your first
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  • I found the circle of fifths useful for dental work to take my mind off the drilling. Problem is I know it too well now. Alternatively eat less sugar and you won't need it.
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  • uncledickuncledick Frets: 159
    Now, I'm going to try and tread a fine line here between respecting the theoretical knowledge of those who have posted here, whilst saying the Circle of Fifths is pretty much redundant on the guitar.

    Why?  Because, unlike a piano, as a player you don't need to concern yourself unduly with whether a particular key has sharps and flats.  Want to transpose a C major scale to a B?  If you were going to write that down in notation, or play it on a piano, you would need to use the Circle of Fifths to know that B has five sharps.  On a guitar?  Just shift the whole thing down by one fret and throw the Co5ths in the bin.  If you know the fingering for the major scale (without using any open strings) then you can move it anywhere you like, without giving one jot for what the note names actually are.  Apart from the root note, of course.  It's the *relationship* between the notes you are playing rather than the actual note names themselves that are important.  In fact, because you can tune a guitar up and down with ease, the actual note names can be more of a hindrance than a help.  I tune down to Eb, but I still call a C chord a C chord, and unless I'm playing with a piano or other fixed-tuning instrument, it works fine.  And if I *am* playing with a fixed-tuning instrument, I just tell them I'm playing a B and let them worry about it! :)

    @Viz gives an excellent summary of the theory, but I've already argued that you don't actually need to worry about "how many sharps are in this key signature" to play the guitar to a high level.  As for finding 5ths?  Doesn't this come naturally, from the most basic of chords, the power chord?  The E, A, and D shape have a 5th built right into them as the next note up from the root - so doesn't every guitarist instinctively know where to find (if not the actual name of) the 5th of any key?

    For me personally, the secrets of music theory can be unlocked by considering chord construction.  Learn the basics - root, third, fifth, and understand the what makes major and what makes minor chords (changing the third, basically).  Then consider sus2, sus4, major and minor 7th, add9, add11, and learn how they sound.  Then diminished, and augmented, and... well, it never stops.  

    If you know a chord you know half the scale, and then experimenting with filling in the blanks to see what sounds good is my personal recipe for interesting playing, rather than sweating over whether you should be playing an F# or G in that A major scale.  Knowing what sound you're going for, rather than what theory says you should do, is they key to interesting playing IMHO.  On the guitar, at any rate.  I'm not sure Mozart would thank you for changing his sheet music, but since most mainstream guitar playing is largely improvisatory, this sort of approach works, in my experience.

    Again, to make it clear, I'm not criticising anything that has gone before, it's just that it's my opinion that, specifically for mainstream guitar playing, the Circle of Fifths is not worth spending time worrying about.
    Very nicely put. 

    As someone who's never had a music lesson, let alone a guitar lesson, I really struggle with any kind of theory.  I've looked at various Youtube vids about minor pentatonics etc. and just find myself feeling 'hemmed in'.  Whilst I'm pretty hopeless at just turning up and jamming along, I can, given a little time, work out quite a reasonable solo which will fit in with the flavour of the piece.

    Our keyboard player - who has a degree in music - called me 'a brilliant musician'.  I'm not, but when I asked her to explain, she said it's because of the way I can interpret a song and make it work for our line-up - and then transpose the key as required using the stuff that @modellista talks about.

    The fact is that music means a whole lot of different things to different folks.  If you're enjoying it, you're doing it right.
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  • uncledick said:8
    Now, I'm going to try and tread a fine line here between respecting the theoretical knowledge of those who have posted here, whilst saying the Circle of Fifths is pretty much redundant on the guitar.

    Why?  Because, unlike a piano, as a player you don't need to concern yourself unduly with whether a particular key has sharps and flats.  Want to transpose a C major scale to a B?  If you were going to write that down in notation, or play it on a piano, you would need to use the Circle of Fifths to know that B has five sharps.  On a guitar?  Just shift the whole thing down by one fret and throw the Co5ths in the bin.  If you know the fingering for the major scale (without using any open strings) then you can move it anywhere you like, without giving one jot for what the note names actually are.  Apart from the root note, of course.  It's the *relationship* between the notes you are playing rather than the actual note names themselves that are important.  In fact, because you can tune a guitar up and down with ease, the actual note names can be more of a hindrance than a help.  I tune down to Eb, but I still call a C chord a C chord, and unless I'm playing with a piano or other fixed-tuning instrument, it works fine.  And if I *am* playing with a fixed-tuning instrument, I just tell them I'm playing a B and let them worry about it! :)

    @Viz gives an excellent summary of the theory, but I've already argued that you don't actually need to worry about "how many sharps are in this key signature" to play the guitar to a high level.  As for finding 5ths?  Doesn't this come naturally, from the most basic of chords, the power chord?  The E, A, and D shape have a 5th built right into them as the next note up from the root - so doesn't every guitarist instinctively know where to find (if not the actual name of) the 5th of any key?

    For me personally, the secrets of music theory can be unlocked by considering chord construction.  Learn the basics - root, third, fifth, and understand the what makes major and what makes minor chords (changing the third, basically).  Then consider sus2, sus4, major and minor 7th, add9, add11, and learn how they sound.  Then diminished, and augmented, and... well, it never stops.  

    If you know a chord you know half the scale, and then experimenting with filling in the blanks to see what sounds good is my personal recipe for interesting playing, rather than sweating over whether you should be playing an F# or G in that A major scale.  Knowing what sound you're going for, rather than what theory says you should do, is they key to interesting playing IMHO.  On the guitar, at any rate.  I'm not sure Mozart would thank you for changing his sheet music, but since most mainstream guitar playing is largely improvisatory, this sort of approach works, in my experience.

    Again, to make it clear, I'm not criticising anything that has gone before, it's just that it's my opinion that, specifically for mainstream guitar playing, the Circle of Fifths is not worth spending time worrying about.
    Very nicely put. 

    As someone who's never had a music lesson, let alone a guitar lesson, I really struggle with any kind of theory.  I've looked at various Youtube vids about minor pentatonics etc. and just find myself feeling 'hemmed in'.  Whilst I'm pretty hopeless at just turning up and jamming along, I can, given a little time, work out quite a reasonable solo which will fit in with the flavour of the piece.

    Our keyboard player - who has a degree in music - called me 'a brilliant musician'.  I'm not, but when I asked her to explain, she said it's because of the way I can interpret a song and make it work for our line-up - and then transpose the key as required using the stuff that @modellista talks about.

    The fact is that music means a whole lot of different things to different folks.  If you're enjoying it, you're doing it right.
    What would you say was the most important thing in your development? Learning songs by ear? Building the innate connection between ear and fretboard?
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  • paul_c2paul_c2 Frets: 400
    Do you need to know what's inside sausages to enjoy the taste of them?

    Personally I've never really noticed the circle of fifths being massively valuable in guitar playing, but useful in other areas - for example composing little tunes, or transposing (or checking others' transpositions) for various instruments. For example, if a piece is in G, but the F horn part it rewritten for a Bb tenor saxophone what key is it written in? And if the horn played an F# what note would the transposed sax play? (C#). Parts for Eb and A instruments are even more fun to try work out.
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  • uncledickuncledick Frets: 159
    uncledick said:8
    Now, I'm going to try and tread a fine line here between respecting the theoretical knowledge of those who have posted here, whilst saying the Circle of Fifths is pretty much redundant on the guitar.

    Why?  Because, unlike a piano, as a player you don't need to concern yourself unduly with whether a particular key has sharps and flats.  Want to transpose a C major scale to a B?  If you were going to write that down in notation, or play it on a piano, you would need to use the Circle of Fifths to know that B has five sharps.  On a guitar?  Just shift the whole thing down by one fret and throw the Co5ths in the bin.  If you know the fingering for the major scale (without using any open strings) then you can move it anywhere you like, without giving one jot for what the note names actually are.  Apart from the root note, of course.  It's the *relationship* between the notes you are playing rather than the actual note names themselves that are important.  In fact, because you can tune a guitar up and down with ease, the actual note names can be more of a hindrance than a help.  I tune down to Eb, but I still call a C chord a C chord, and unless I'm playing with a piano or other fixed-tuning instrument, it works fine.  And if I *am* playing with a fixed-tuning instrument, I just tell them I'm playing a B and let them worry about it! :)

    @Viz gives an excellent summary of the theory, but I've already argued that you don't actually need to worry about "how many sharps are in this key signature" to play the guitar to a high level.  As for finding 5ths?  Doesn't this come naturally, from the most basic of chords, the power chord?  The E, A, and D shape have a 5th built right into them as the next note up from the root - so doesn't every guitarist instinctively know where to find (if not the actual name of) the 5th of any key?

    For me personally, the secrets of music theory can be unlocked by considering chord construction.  Learn the basics - root, third, fifth, and understand the what makes major and what makes minor chords (changing the third, basically).  Then consider sus2, sus4, major and minor 7th, add9, add11, and learn how they sound.  Then diminished, and augmented, and... well, it never stops.  

    If you know a chord you know half the scale, and then experimenting with filling in the blanks to see what sounds good is my personal recipe for interesting playing, rather than sweating over whether you should be playing an F# or G in that A major scale.  Knowing what sound you're going for, rather than what theory says you should do, is they key to interesting playing IMHO.  On the guitar, at any rate.  I'm not sure Mozart would thank you for changing his sheet music, but since most mainstream guitar playing is largely improvisatory, this sort of approach works, in my experience.

    Again, to make it clear, I'm not criticising anything that has gone before, it's just that it's my opinion that, specifically for mainstream guitar playing, the Circle of Fifths is not worth spending time worrying about.
    Very nicely put. 

    As someone who's never had a music lesson, let alone a guitar lesson, I really struggle with any kind of theory.  I've looked at various Youtube vids about minor pentatonics etc. and just find myself feeling 'hemmed in'.  Whilst I'm pretty hopeless at just turning up and jamming along, I can, given a little time, work out quite a reasonable solo which will fit in with the flavour of the piece.

    Our keyboard player - who has a degree in music - called me 'a brilliant musician'.  I'm not, but when I asked her to explain, she said it's because of the way I can interpret a song and make it work for our line-up - and then transpose the key as required using the stuff that @modellista talks about.

    The fact is that music means a whole lot of different things to different folks.  If you're enjoying it, you're doing it right.
    What would you say was the most important thing in your development? Learning songs by ear? Building the innate connection between ear and fretboard?
    Some stuff I can learn by ear and for others I'm on Youtube looking for clues.  Most tab sites are just plain wrong.  I suppose my playing improved when I stopped concentrating on the widdly guitar bits and focused on dynamics and timing.  Most people in an audience won't know if you've fluffed a guitar solo but it stands out a mile when you start or finish it wrongly.  Any song has a number of key 'markers' - the bits which make you recognise it on a cheap radio in a noisy room.  If you know what these are, the rest can be filled in later.

    The same goes for the rest of the band,  Working on the intros / breaks etc. has made a huge difference to how we sound.

    It's also worth remembering that the crowd have, in theory, come to enjoy your act, not criticise it.  If they want a perfect rendition, it'll be on iTunes.  If they want that raw, interactive vibe that exists at a good gig, all you can do is give it your best shot.

    Sorry - I've strayed off topic. 


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  • uncledickuncledick Frets: 159
    uncledick said:8
    Now, I'm going to try and tread a fine line here between respecting the theoretical knowledge of those who have posted here, whilst saying the Circle of Fifths is pretty much redundant on the guitar.

    Why?  Because, unlike a piano, as a player you don't need to concern yourself unduly with whether a particular key has sharps and flats.  Want to transpose a C major scale to a B?  If you were going to write that down in notation, or play it on a piano, you would need to use the Circle of Fifths to know that B has five sharps.  On a guitar?  Just shift the whole thing down by one fret and throw the Co5ths in the bin.  If you know the fingering for the major scale (without using any open strings) then you can move it anywhere you like, without giving one jot for what the note names actually are.  Apart from the root note, of course.  It's the *relationship* between the notes you are playing rather than the actual note names themselves that are important.  In fact, because you can tune a guitar up and down with ease, the actual note names can be more of a hindrance than a help.  I tune down to Eb, but I still call a C chord a C chord, and unless I'm playing with a piano or other fixed-tuning instrument, it works fine.  And if I *am* playing with a fixed-tuning instrument, I just tell them I'm playing a B and let them worry about it! :)

    @Viz gives an excellent summary of the theory, but I've already argued that you don't actually need to worry about "how many sharps are in this key signature" to play the guitar to a high level.  As for finding 5ths?  Doesn't this come naturally, from the most basic of chords, the power chord?  The E, A, and D shape have a 5th built right into them as the next note up from the root - so doesn't every guitarist instinctively know where to find (if not the actual name of) the 5th of any key?

    For me personally, the secrets of music theory can be unlocked by considering chord construction.  Learn the basics - root, third, fifth, and understand the what makes major and what makes minor chords (changing the third, basically).  Then consider sus2, sus4, major and minor 7th, add9, add11, and learn how they sound.  Then diminished, and augmented, and... well, it never stops.  

    If you know a chord you know half the scale, and then experimenting with filling in the blanks to see what sounds good is my personal recipe for interesting playing, rather than sweating over whether you should be playing an F# or G in that A major scale.  Knowing what sound you're going for, rather than what theory says you should do, is they key to interesting playing IMHO.  On the guitar, at any rate.  I'm not sure Mozart would thank you for changing his sheet music, but since most mainstream guitar playing is largely improvisatory, this sort of approach works, in my experience.

    Again, to make it clear, I'm not criticising anything that has gone before, it's just that it's my opinion that, specifically for mainstream guitar playing, the Circle of Fifths is not worth spending time worrying about.
    Very nicely put. 

    As someone who's never had a music lesson, let alone a guitar lesson, I really struggle with any kind of theory.  I've looked at various Youtube vids about minor pentatonics etc. and just find myself feeling 'hemmed in'.  Whilst I'm pretty hopeless at just turning up and jamming along, I can, given a little time, work out quite a reasonable solo which will fit in with the flavour of the piece.

    Our keyboard player - who has a degree in music - called me 'a brilliant musician'.  I'm not, but when I asked her to explain, she said it's because of the way I can interpret a song and make it work for our line-up - and then transpose the key as required using the stuff that @modellista talks about.

    The fact is that music means a whole lot of different things to different folks.  If you're enjoying it, you're doing it right.
    What would you say was the most important thing in your development? Learning songs by ear? Building the innate connection between ear and fretboard?
    Some stuff I can learn by ear and for others I'm on Youtube looking for clues.  Most tab sites are just plain wrong.  I suppose my playing improved when I stopped concentrating on the widdly guitar bits and focused on dynamics and timing.  Most people in an audience won't know if you've fluffed a guitar solo but it stands out a mile when you start or finish it wrongly.  Any song has a number of key 'markers' - the bits which make you recognise it on a cheap radio in a noisy room.  If you know what these are, the rest can be filled in later.

    The same goes for the rest of the band,  Working on the intros / breaks etc. has made a huge difference to how we sound.

    It's also worth remembering that the crowd have, in theory, come to enjoy your act, not criticise it.  If they want a perfect rendition, it'll be on iTunes.  If they want that raw, interactive vibe that exists at a good gig, all you can do is give it your best shot.

    Sorry - I've strayed off topic. 


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  • pintspillerpintspiller Frets: 406
    Anyone tell me the practical benefits of knowing the Circle of fifths and the Major Scales Notes off by heart?

    I'll kick you in the bollocks if you don't
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  • BradBrad Frets: 183
    Anyone tell me the practical benefits of knowing the Circle of fifths and the Major Scales Notes off by heart?
    Well, last week I had to transpose a song for a student from D to Gb on the spot. Admittedly, it wasn't a tricky song but having my basic theory down helped in that instance as it does in many situations I find myself in. So I need to know this stuff. 

    But what situations do you find yourself in and what do you want to achieve? Because you might not need to know it at all, but then again it might come in useful when you least expect it. 

    Some of my favourite, inventive, guitarists don't really know any theory. There are just as many that do. It's up to the individual how they use the info. 

    Who are your favourite players and why do you like them? Do you think they know the circle of 5ths and the major scale notes off by heart?
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  • Do you know @brad this thread has brought up a lot of great points for an against.

    Ultimately im beginning to see the value.

    I was trying to figure out the chords of a song the other day, by firstly picking out the melody. It dawned on me that instant knowledge and recall of the major scale and notes within chords were extremely useful.

    As I didn't have this I had to revert to playing out the major scale shape and checking what degree of the scale I was playing to try to find a chord to play over.

    This was time consuming.

    Suffice to say it makes sense to get this info in.

    Any good practice routines to get it in?

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  • SporkySporky Frets: 11385
    Rocker said:
    From my perspective, theory can stifle your natural curiosity about what works or doesn't work musically.
    That argument always strikes me as a bit odd; you can save a lot of time and get on with making music by gaining some understanding of the theory.

    Otherwise it's like trying to become a surgeon by sticking knives into people. It'll take a long time to go from psychopath to saving lives that way.
    Never forget that you are wearing your invisible tiara.
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  • BradBrad Frets: 183
    edited March 2017

    Do you know @brad this thread has brought up a lot of great points for an against.

    Ultimately im beginning to see the value.

    I was trying to figure out the chords of a song the other day, by firstly picking out the melody. It dawned on me that instant knowledge and recall of the major scale and notes within chords were extremely useful.

    As I didn't have this I had to revert to playing out the major scale shape and checking what degree of the scale I was playing to try to find a chord to play over.

    This was time consuming.

    Suffice to say it makes sense to get this info in.

    Any good practice routines to get it in?

    And that's the problem, there are arguments for and against so you can only check it out and see if it works for you. I've lost count of people resisting this stuff, only for the light bulb to switch on at a later date when they needed it.  

    The fact you're seeing the value is a good start, it'll help with the learning process.

    I was being assessed on this while studying, so I must admit that definitely helped get it together. At first I did it away from the instrument (as I think the nature of the guitar makes this harder than it needs to be) and treated it like leaning my times tables or a spelling test. Doing it away from the instrument meant I could work on it anywhere, at anytime. I'd start from C major and work through the sharp keys one by one to F#. Then I'd do the same but the with the flat keys through to Gb. That made it achievable as only small amounts of info were being added at any time. Perhaps set a target, learn the sharp keys over 7 days, the flat keys over another 7 days?

    Writing it out on paper and on the stave was VERY useful (I'm not particularly good at looking at a book and things just sticking). I'd then compare different scales and patterns would emerge which again would help reinforce the info.

    Then I'd apply it to the guitar, the easiest way being along one string. Then one octave scales, two octave scales and so on... I had to really think it through and above all be patient. It took a while but once the pieces began to fall into place, it came together pretty quickly. So don't get frustrated if it doesn't happen straight away. This is what worked for me anyway, maybe other folks have different approaches that will be helpful?

    I completely agree that knowing theory isn't the be all and end all to great music or playing. But at the same time it can and does open avenues that may not be readily available otherwise. The Nile Rogers story of David Bowie bringing him Let's Dance is a nice example (And Bowie knew his stuff too by the way!). 
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  • Sporky said:
    Rocker said:
    From my perspective, theory can stifle your natural curiosity about what works or doesn't work musically.
    That argument always strikes me as a bit odd; you can save a lot of time and get on with making music by gaining some understanding of the theory.

    Indeed. It seems to me that people who don't understand theory often get entirely the wrong end of the stick as to what people who do understand theory do with it.

    It's not like you're constantly thinking "oh, right, next chord is Dm7 so theory says I must play these notes...".  

    You'd never get people arguing that knowing what an adverb is was a hindrance to writing poetry, but weirdly its an argument people make about music.

    By all means argue that knowing theory isn't necessary for your average rock musician (I disagree, but I can see where that argument comes from) but the idea that learning theory is in some way stifling or constricting is just total nonsense born out of a complete misunderstanding of what knowing theory means.

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  • FuengiFuengi Frets: 245
    ...Ding!

    I think I've just realised that the Circle of 5ths is also really useful for working out Major Chord construction - Take the Chord of D Major for example, A is the 5th and the relative minor of A is F# which is the 3rd of D major. So in a glance you can see your Root, 3rd and 5th.

    Correct me if this doesn't work...
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  • NeillNeill Frets: 232
    Every so often a question comes up on this forum and my instinctive response is didn't they teach you this at school?

    I'm not being flippant, I went to secondary school in the 1960's and we were taught all this stuff in the first and second year, it was compulsory.  Is music theory an option for schools/pupils these days?
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  • Depends if you can apply it to the guitar and use it later on. Otherwise not much point. It helps me cos I work with a lot of keys and stuff.
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  • StavrosStavros Frets: 37
    Neill said:
    Every so often a question comes up on this forum and my instinctive response is didn't they teach you this at school?
    No.
    Neill said:

    I'm not being flippant, I went to secondary school in the 1960's and we were taught all this stuff in the first and second year, it was compulsory.  Is music theory an option for schools/pupils these days?
    Dunno. I went to school in the 70’s.
    I love my brick
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