New Gibson weight releif... Same as the old one

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RabsRabs Frets: 2602
in Guitar tFB Trader

So for anyone interested in these sorts of details...   When the new Gibson line came out some of them were sporting what they call Ultra Modern Weight Relief...

They now have a page up here showing it...  I do have to wonder why they bothered changing it at all?

http://www.gibson.com/News-Lifestyle/Features/en-us/Gibson-2017-New-Model-Preview.aspx

This is the old one on the right

http://i1173.photobucket.com/albums/r588/Rabs2010/986927gibsonweightrelief_zpsoafkxum7.jpg

And the new sparkly ULTRA version??

http://i1173.photobucket.com/albums/r588/Rabs2010/2017-weight-relief_zpscq9gj2go.jpg

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  • usedtobeusedtobe Frets: 3841
    Hmmm...
     so if you fancy a reissue of a guitar they never made in a colour they never used then it probably isn't too overpriced.

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  • VoxmanVoxman Frets: 4718
    edited January 2017
    So, I'm totally confused and bemused. When did all this chambered/weight relief stuff first come in and which guitars have which? i've found bits and pieces but wanted a full definitive guide that clearly listed model, year and type of weight relief/chambering used.

    And aside from weight advantage, what's the general consensus regarding chambering/weight relief from the perspective of tone and value/desirability?  

    Anyone?
    I started out with nothing..... but I've still got most of it left (Seasick Steve)
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  • Si_Si_ Frets: 384
    edited January 2017
    In the 80s i think or at least early 90s. 
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  • RabsRabs Frets: 2602
    edited January 2017 tFB Trader
    Voxman said:
    So, I'm totally confused and bemused. When did all this chambered/weight relief stuff first come in and which guitars have which? 


    They have been doing it since about 1982....  And they did it because LPs were getting really heavy (like 15lbs +)..  The thing is that for many years no one knew about it theres a famous pic on the net of a LP that was x-rayed....

    So most LPs have one type or another but there are some solid bodies with no relief (some LP Traditionals and some Custom models)... And I think in 2008 they started chambering them (Standards) but with a huge backlash as people didn't like it (I actually have a chambered one and love it myself)..  so they dont do that so much, I think some Studios are still chambered.... And I would agree that a chambered model can sound a bit brighter...   but not to the extent that it makes much difference (well not to me anyway).

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  • WezVWezV Frets: 16547
    The 9 hole weight relief won't change the tone much at all, you are losing a little mass, but no stiffness.  It's also not the most effective.... on the one I did it worked out at 1oz per hole.  It won't make a heavy les Paul into a light one

    full chambers have a more noticeable impact on weight and tone... you will lose a couple of lb at least.


    modern kinda splits the difference, looks pleasing and is easy to do on CNC.  But generally lots of small chambers has less tonal impact that a few big ones, even if the same amount of wood is removed.

     Like all these things, it's hard to prove so just play the bloody things.


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  • VoxmanVoxman Frets: 4718
    Rabs said:
    Voxman said:
    So, I'm totally confused and bemused. When did all this chambered/weight relief stuff first come in and which guitars have which? 


    They have been doing it since about 1982....  And they did it because LPs were getting really heavy (like 15lbs +)..  The thing is that for many years no one knew about it theres a famous pic on the net of a LP that was x-rayed....

    So most LPs have one type or another but there are some solid bodies with no relief (some LP Traditionals and some Custom models)... And I think in 2008 they started chambering them (Standards) but with a huge backlash as people didn't like it (I actually have a chambered one and love it myself)..  so they dont do that so much, I think some Studios are still chambered.... And I would agree that a chambered model can sound a bit brighter...   but not to the extent that it makes much difference (well not to me anyway).

    OK, thanks. So, other than an X-Ray, and unless it's disclosed on the sales docs, how can you tell if a LP is solid or weight relieved? For example, I have a 1990 LP Custom which is around 11lbs and I always assumed was solid?
    I started out with nothing..... but I've still got most of it left (Seasick Steve)
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  • Si_Si_ Frets: 384
    It's more likely that it is weight relieved that it isn't, about 90% are.
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  • RabsRabs Frets: 2602
    edited January 2017 tFB Trader

    Haha, that's exactly what I though about my LP Classic that's also almost 11lbs (and shows why they do it)...

    Well from what I can remember off the top of my head..  Up until 2007 they only used the 9 hole (swiss cheese).. Then they tried the chambering which lasted I think till 2011 then the modern weight relief... Customs im not so sure about but probably swiss cheesed..

    But actually I think that's the point..  Other than chambering (which you can tell by knocking on the top) there is no way to tell just from looking or even playing one..

    This stuff is just for the nerds and really doesn't make much difference...  (well I don't think anyway, some people will swear that unless its a totally solid body its not a real Les Paul  and wont sustain as much (which is of course utter nonsense :) )

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  • VoxmanVoxman Frets: 4718
    edited January 2017
    Original LP's eg 1958/59 are often surprisingly light - these wouldn't be weight relieved, so how come LP's started at a much more reasonable weight and seemed to get heavier - OK, that sounds like me, but guitars don't eat and drink as much, so what changed?
    I started out with nothing..... but I've still got most of it left (Seasick Steve)
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  • RabsRabs Frets: 2602
    tFB Trader
    Voxman said:
    Original LP's eg 1958/59 are often surprisingly light - these wouldn't be weight relieved, so how come LP's started at a much more reasonable weight and seemed to get heavier - OK, that sounds like me, but guitars don't eat and drink as much, so what changed?

    Because all of that old Genuine Mahogany is much lighter than the type they use these days...... 
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  • Si_Si_ Frets: 384
    The quality of the wood changed, the older wood is much dryer and lighter. Later wood wasn't as high quality and as a result weighs more. 

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  • This is a well known, well proven technique, oft used in the world.

    It's called marketing.

    With or without the BS post script.
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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 71961
    Voxman said:
    Original LP's eg 1958/59 are often surprisingly light - these wouldn't be weight relieved, so how come LP's started at a much more reasonable weight and seemed to get heavier - OK, that sounds like me, but guitars don't eat and drink as much, so what changed?
    Because contrary to popular belief, original 50s Les Pauls were not made from Honduras mahogany, they were made from lighter African mahogany. Gil Yaron has apparently got original documentation from Gibson showing that's what they were buying in the late 50s. They only started using Honduras for the second series from 1968 onwards, which is why these are all heavier.

    What puzzles me about the various weight-relief attempts is that using the same diameter holes as in the older 9-hole pattern, you could easily fit in about double that number without impacting any structural areas… and that in the modern pattern, what's the hole near the treble stoptail post for? That seems almost purposely designed to possibly compromise tone for virtually no significant extra weight loss. Or if it doesn't affect tone, why isn't there one on the bass side too?

    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone." - Walt Kowalski

    "Just because I don't care, doesn't mean I don't understand." - Homer Simpson

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  • p90foolp90fool Frets: 31369
    Voxman said:
    Original LP's eg 1958/59 are often surprisingly light - these wouldn't be weight relieved, so how come LP's started at a much more reasonable weight and seemed to get heavier - OK, that sounds like me, but guitars don't eat and drink as much, so what changed?
    The average for known examples from 1958 is over 9lbs, only a few ounces short of my 2012 "boat anchor".

    Les Pauls became iconic during the 60s because they were so heavy, and by the 70s players were demanding even more weight, resulting in Yamaha's brass sustain blocks and aftermarket cast brass bridge plates for Strats. Heaviness represented quality and sustain for most people.

    There is a (usually spurious) tonal argument for the airiness that comes with lighter Les Pauls, but the fundamental reason everyone wants them to feel like they're filled with helium is that the guitar playing community, and most especially the blues/rock playing community is now really quite elderly.

    These people demand that their Les Pauls look exactly like a '59, but feel and sound like an Epi Dot. 
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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 71961
    lol

    Harsh but true :).

    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone." - Walt Kowalski

    "Just because I don't care, doesn't mean I don't understand." - Homer Simpson

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  • WezVWezV Frets: 16547
    edited January 2017
    Generalisations about old wood or certain species being dryer or lighter are not massively helpful.

    lighter.  Ignoring the wood Gibson used debate, khayas average weight is higher than that of Cuban mahogany, Honduran mahogany and Cedrela.   This does not mean all khaya will be heavier.  I was caught off guard by two builders saying black Limba was heavier than the white version.  It does not match my experience, but could be true.  Of course they were buying stocks from the same place, so it may be that source which is heavier.   


    Dryer.  a 50's les Paul kept in Hawaii will be wetter than a new one from the factory.  The dryness of wood is not a fixed quantity, it adjusts to its environment.  Old wood does gradually get dryer, but never looses its ability to reabsorb moisture. It's hard to compare air vs kiln dried, but kiln generally goes dryer than air.   If you go back to before it was chopped down, it's pretty well established that wetter trees give lighter wood once "dried".  


    The moisture and mineral content of the soil the tree grew in  has more to do with the weight than species does
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  • DanielsguitarsDanielsguitars Frets: 3261
    edited January 2017 tFB Trader
    The black limba I had is so heavy, a Jr dc body weighed over 7lb on its own

    The African mahogany I have had mostly been lighter than any honduran I've looked at so far
    I picked them up from people selling planks and it's older 30 and 20 yr old stock

    I looked recently and only one blank out of David dyke was ok and none out of timberline, just too heavy for me

    My last Lp was a mixture of chamber and Swiss cheese holes

    No science just did what I thought and got the blank to 4lb, the guitar sounds great and 7.75lb finished

    It hasn't got a full burst tone but it's really good and I'd do it again

    I generally use body blanks that weigh no more than 5.2- 5.3lb cut out with control cavitys done, it gets me a full fat Lp style under 9lb which is my ideal

    I do have to hunt round for that wood though and have enough stock to keep me going for a few years ☺
    www.danielsguitars.co.uk
    (formerly customkits)
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  • WezVWezV Frets: 16547

    I guess that's my point. The black limba I was importing from the US 10-15 years ago is clearly from a different source than the black limba available in the UK today.  The source is important

    this is a great site for general wood properties, as long as you accept  they are generalisations only.  but they generally come from more sources than personal experience and anecdotes alone

    http://www.wood-database.com/

    http://www.wood-database.com/wood-articles/mahogany-mixups-the-lowdown/

    it tells you stuff like this:

    Cuban - Average Dried Weight: 37 lbs/ft3 (600 kg/m3)

    Honduran - Average Dried Weight: 37 lbs/ft3 (590 kg/m3)

    Khaya - Average Dried Weight: 40 lbs/ft3 (640 kg/m3)

    Utile - Average Dried Weight: 40 lbs/ft3 (635 kg/m3)

    Sapele - Average Dried Weight: 42 lbs/ft3 (670 kg/m3)

    Cedrela (Spanish cedar) - Average Dried Weight: 29 lbs/ft3 (470 kg/m3)

    Limba - Average Dried Weight: 35 lbs/ft3 (555 kg/m3)

    Idigbo - Average Dried Weight: 33 lbs/ft3 (530 kg/m3)


    For reference - 2 known heavy woods and 2 known light woods

    Gaboon Ebony - Average Dried Weight: 60 lbs/ft3 (955 kg/m3)

    Hard maple - Average Dried Weight: 44 lbs/ft3 (705 kg/m3)

    Balsa - Average Dried Weight: 9 lbs/ft3 (150 kg/m3)

    Basswood - Average Dried Weight: 26 lbs/ft3 (415 kg/m3)



    Obviously those are averages, and the range would also be important as I think most mahoganies vary in weight more than most maples..



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  • DanielsguitarsDanielsguitars Frets: 3261
    tFB Trader
    That limba was there for 20 years wez
    www.danielsguitars.co.uk
    (formerly customkits)
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