Too far down the rabbit hole?

Niallseroreilly

I was watching a youtube video recently of two my favourite guitar players Robben Ford and Larry Carlton.

During the video it suddenly struck me that the music seemed devoid of melody and quite frankly sounded truly awful (just my opinion).

Now the last thing i would want to do is disrespect two fantastic musicians and personal heros but it got me thinking that maybe the sheer technical ability and knowledge of these guys excludes the casual listener somehow?

To each is his own but surely good music should move and connect us?

Its like Noel Gallagher says on Jazz. The performer is enjoying himself a lot more than everyone else there.

octatonic

Are this ingenuous questions going to be your thing on the forum then?

I'm not really sure you are saying anything that hasn't been said before.
You either get it or you don't and both cases are just fine.

Go and listen to the Kid Charlemagne and tell me that it is devoid of melody- it is one of the best examples of 'playing the changes' that I can think of.
Neither Ford or Carlton are what I would call 'technique over melody' type of players though- I think that is a totally inaccurate assessment of them.

Compare both of them to someone like Chris Broderick or Petrucci- that is very technical playing (I happen to admire both those guys as well, but I don't listen to that stuff nearly as much.
Ford and Carlton are much more blues based but adding jazz harmony on top- they are playing changes and outlining chord progressions.

Should good music 'move and connect us'?
Um, no not necessarily.
A lot of music is very tribal and designed to connect people to whom it appeals to.
Virtually no genre of music has universal appeal.

viz

Niallseroreilly said:

I was watching a youtube video recently of two my favourite guitar players Robben Ford and Larry Carlton.

During the video it suddenly struck me that the music seemed devoid of melody and quite frankly sounded truly awful (just my opinion).

Now the last thing i would want to do is disrespect two fantastic musicians and personal heros but it got me thinking that maybe the sheer technical ability and knowledge of these guys excludes the casual listener somehow?

To each is his own but surely good music should move and connect us?

Its like Noel Gallagher says on Jazz. The performer is enjoying himself a lot more than everyone else there.

Can you post the link?

Vaiai

Depends what you were watching - was it live, were their other guitarists - were they jamming? I've been a fan of Carlton for many years but I have noticed when he gigs with Luke he gets caught up in the guitar wankery and plays crap. However watch some of his Last Night footage and you'll see the master at work. 

All guitarists can get caught up live and the worst ones for me are the mega jams with Little Wing or some other "classic" being murdered by generic solos - I love Vai, Timmons, Gilbert etc but some of the jams they get into just become a noise..but there is a place for that and they all have a body of work behind them that shows the extent of their ability, feel, tone and compositional skills.

Niallseroreilly

@octatonic ;Ill have you a naked skypecyber guitar duel any day mate then we'll see who is ingenuous...

Anyway... ill post the link up later but it was truly trunks.... 

But i get it just because i dont like it doesnt mean everyone doesnt, i get that....

I wasnt critising all their playing and i love Kid Charlamagne.

axisus

The way I see it, most kids like lemonade, but none of them like wine at all. When you get older you acquire the palate to truly appreciate fine wine, and it is far more rewarding than the fizzy drinks were.

Niallseroreilly

http://https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=nAbjOUnNCKc


Couldn't find the one with Robben Ford and Larry Carlton, but the first few minutes of this are unbearably bad if you think otherwise you're lying to yourself.

I think Larry Carlton is an unreal player and one of my favourite albums is Larry Plays the Sound of Philadelphia but in that recording he hit the bottom of the rabbit hole and I don't care if he hit all his target notes @octatonic ;

Grunfeld

....

bingefeller

Yeah 80s Larry isn't great, especially when he was trying to do the LA shred thing.  

Niallseroreilly

Vaiai said:8

Depends what you were watching - was it live, were their other guitarists - were they jamming? I've been a fan of Carlton for many years but I have noticed when he gigs with Luke he gets caught up in the guitar wankery and plays crap. However watch some of his Last Night footage and you'll see the master at work. 

All guitarists can get caught up live and the worst ones for me are the mega jams with Little Wing or some other "classic" being murdered by generic solos - I love Vai, Timmons, Gilbert etc but some of the jams they get into just become a noise..but there is a place for that and they all have a body of work behind them that shows the extent of their ability, feel, tone and compositional skills.

I really appreciate this. This really sums up how i feel about it. 

I love all those said guitarists and it makes me think how can someone that good not realise that the end product sounds very bland and unmusical.

Brad

Niallseroreilly said:

I was watching a youtube video recently of two my favourite guitar players Robben Ford and Larry Carlton.

During the video it suddenly struck me that the music seemed devoid of melody and quite frankly sounded truly awful (just my opinion).

Now the last thing i would want to do is disrespect two fantastic musicians and personal heros but it got me thinking that maybe the sheer technical ability and knowledge of these guys excludes the casual listener somehow?

To each is his own but surely good music should move and connect us?

Its like Noel Gallagher says on Jazz. The performer is enjoying himself a lot more than everyone else there.

Critical listening is good and at first it can be quite disconcerting to realise that you're actually not keen on the music of the players you love, (well it was for me at least...). With some guys I had to separate listening to the music and just listen to the playing.

How much of their output (combined or individual) do you feel is devoid of melody and sounds awful? Bearing in mind the vast body of work of each musician, there are always gonna be a few bits, maybe lots of bits that don't work for you. That's cool too. I love Pat Metheny in a trio/quartet setting, can't really stand the overblown PMG stuff so I just swerve it.

I don't think you're disrespecting them at all but out of anyone in that idiom those two are the most likely to have crossover appeal. But why should it bother you whether the casual listener is excluded or not? Do you want to be the casual listener? I know I don't, but I enjoy a Scofield tune just as much as a Nirvana one. Listen to music for you, just get lost in it whatever it is.

Good music is in the ear of the beholder to a large extent. Millions of people like Coldplay after all...

I've seen a lot of great improvisors live at close quarters and I can assure you that what Noel Gallagher says is not the case.  

Niallseroreilly said:

Couldn't find the one with Robben Ford and Larry Carlton, but the first few minutes of this are unbearably bad if you think otherwise you're lying to yourself.

 See the end of the second sentence in your first post ;-)   

Niallseroreilly

@Brad ;was tongue in cheek really, of course some people might enjoy it.

Yeah i like what you say about separating the music from the playing that seems to make sense to me.

I went to see Jim Mullen recently and I really enjoyed it and I suppose it made me feel something different from other so called more melodic music.

I suppose the idea for the thread came up because I really admire these players technique and would stream a lot of their live gigs to the tv most days and during this i often ask do I really like this music or is it just the players technique i like.

Brad

Niallseroreilly said:

@Brad ;;was tongue in cheek really, of course some people might enjoy it.

Yeah i like what you say about separating the music from the playing that seems to make sense to me.

I went to see Jim Mullen recently and I really enjoyed it and I suppose it made me feel something different from other so called more melodic music.

I suppose the idea for the thread came up because I really admire these players technique and would stream a lot of their live gigs to the tv most days and during this i often ask do I really like this music or is it just the players technique i like.

Aye I'm just teasing ya. I actually agree to be honest

I think that is a really important distinction to make i.e music vs the player. It shows you're not 'just' a casual listener but that you care about the music on a deeper level. I guess that sounds a little condescending to the casual listener... But i think sometimes (and I've been as guilty of this as anyone) we force/kid ourselves to try and like the music because we like the player(s)/band/artist.  

I have far too many examples about this to bore people with (all in my opinion of course!), but for instance if a Steely Dan tune comes on the radio, no matter how much I just don't get them, I'll see the song through to the end just to hear the playing and the musicianship. I listen and really dig everything but the actual song itself if that makes sense, so we can find our connections with music in other ways.     

Niallseroreilly

Brad said:

Niallseroreilly said:

@Brad ;;was tongue in cheek really, of course some people might enjoy it.

Yeah i like what you say about separating the music from the playing that seems to make sense to me.

I went to see Jim Mullen recently and I really enjoyed it and I suppose it made me feel something different from other so called more melodic music.

I suppose the idea for the thread came up because I really admire these players technique and would stream a lot of their live gigs to the tv most days and during this i often ask do I really like this music or is it just the players technique i like.

Aye I'm just teasing ya. I actually agree to be honest

I think that is a really important distinction to make i.e music vs the player. It shows you're not 'just' a casual listener but that you care about the music on a deeper level. I guess that sounds a little condescending to the casual listener... But i think sometimes (and I've been as guilty of this as anyone) we force/kid ourselves to try and like the music because we like the player(s)/band/artist.  

I have far too many examples about this to bore people with (all in my opinion of course!), but for instance if a Steely Dan tune comes on the radio, no matter how much I just don't get them, I'll see the song through to the end just to hear the playing and the musicianship. I listen and really dig everything but the actual song itself if that makes sense, so we can find our connections with music in other ways.     

Brilliant

Niallseroreilly

I think youve summed up what i was feeling but couldnt really articulate it to myself, I was thinking am I pretending to like this stuff because i want to be a better player but i suppose its just a different type of appreciation.

Teetonetal

axisus said:

The way I see it, most kids like lemonade, but none of them like wine at all. When you get older you acquire the palate to truly appreciate fine wine, and it is far more rewarding than the fizzy drinks were.

Well that's wildly inaccurate and assumes that wine is something worth appreciating. Can't stand the stuff these days but got quite into it in my 20's. Now I think the cheap stuff tastes like piss and the expensive stuff is a con.

Taste is personal and changes. There is no better or worse, just different. That also comes through in musicianship, I imagine Robin Ford plays the way he does, because it pleases his ear - he can be the most amazingly accomplished musician but if that style doesn't appeal to my ear, i'm not going to enjoy it. Appreciate it maybe, but not enjoy it. 

and of course, personal taste, experience, education and upbringing etc will have a big impact on what pleases my ear.

Good music does move and connect us. But only if our definition of good matches. To that extent, the more accessible a piece of music is - the more likely it is that more people will deem it good. 

Danny1969

Personally I like my jazzy stuff to be an uncomfortable listen, so it jars a bit .... the wife hates it. 

Niallseroreilly

Danny1969 said:

Personally I like my jazzy stuff to be an uncomfortable listen, so it jars a bit .... the wife hates it. 

Maybe deep down thats why we listen to it ... revenge for the IKEA trips

TheBlueWolf

Musical tastes, along with taste in general, is very subjective.

Taking jazz as an example, it's not really something I listen to often, or enjoy, but that doesn't make it bad music  either. I'm sure that those who love jazz can think of countless wonderful songs and artists.

It's the same with the music I do enjoy; blues, rock and metal. I could come up with a very long list of songs that to me are utter genius, but if those styles or genres aren't to someone else's taste then they won't 'connect' in the way I do

bingefeller

TheBlueWolf said:

Musical tastes, along with taste in general, is very subjective.

Taking jazz as an example, it's not really something I listen to often, or enjoy, but that doesn't make it bad music  either. I'm sure that those who love jazz can think of countless wonderful songs and artists.

It's the same with the music I do enjoy; blues, rock and metal. I could come up with a very long list of songs that to me are utter genius, but if those styles or genres aren't to someone else's taste then they won't 'connect' in the way I do

So much wisdom in this post.

Axe_meister

Also a difference between being at a live event and watching it back on youtube.
You don't get the vibe when you are watching it on TV.