Gibson SJ 200 Neck issues new guitar...Advice please UPDATE

Blaendulais

I'd appreciate some advice on how to proceed.
Bought a new SJ Maple from a dealer who consistently comes up as reputable on here.
Quite figured neck.  
Played fine 2 months, looked after correctly.
Picked up to play yesterday E and B strings choking at the 5th fret.
Took it to local (reputable and recommended) luthier.  Huge neck movement. Not remediable by truss rod adjustment If was older guitar would have advised fret redress or even replacement.  However no guarantee that after this it would move again.

Dealer raising support ticket with Gibson.  Should I expect a replacement?

Thanks in advance

richardhomer

Yes - get rid of it. If the timber was properly dried prior to manufacture, this shouldn't have happened - assuming that you're not keeping the guitar in excessively humid or dry conditions.

Bridgehouse

I would say this is clearly a warranty claim. If Gibson get arsy about it then go all trading standards on the dealer.

ICBM

Not yet - they have the option of repairing it first. They may choose to replace it though, since they will probably find it easier and it has less chance of coming back again. If they do try to repair it and the fault then comes back, I think you should insist on a replacement.

Out of interest, is it choking *only* at the 5th fret - in which case it's more likely to be a lifting 6th - or all around that area? If it's a lifting fret then re-seating it and possibly a light fret dress should fix it permanently. If it's the neck moving then the problem could well come back later.

Bridgehouse

ICBM said:

Not yet - they have the option of repairing it first. They may choose to replace it though, since they will probably find it easier and it has less chance of coming back again. If they do try to repair it and the fault then comes back, I think you should insist on a replacement.

Out of interest, is it choking *only* at the 5th fret - in which case it's more likely to be a lifting 6th - or all around that area? If it's a lifting fret then re-seating it and possibly a light fret dress should fix it permanently. If it's the neck moving then the problem could well come back later.

I would usually agree, but at two months old I would be worried about other issues further on down the road.. my confidence would be marginal in it, whether it's a lifting fret, neck issue or whatever - I would be thinking "what else have they screwed up on it" and I'd be pushing all the buttons for a replacement.

ICBM

Bridgehouse said:

I would usually agree, but at two months old I would be worried about other issues further on down the road.. my confidence would be marginal in it, whether it's a lifting fret, neck issue or whatever - I would be thinking "what else have they screwed up on it" and I'd be pushing all the buttons for a replacement.

They have the legal right to repair it if they want to, if they deem it cheaper to do so than replace. However they only have one opportunity to do that before you are entitled to demand a full refund, so they may choose to replace - but you can't insist on it.

http://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/regulation/consumer-rights-act

Bridgehouse

ICBM said:

Bridgehouse said:

I would usually agree, but at two months old I would be worried about other issues further on down the road.. my confidence would be marginal in it, whether it's a lifting fret, neck issue or whatever - I would be thinking "what else have they screwed up on it" and I'd be pushing all the buttons for a replacement.

They have the legal right to repair it if they want to, if they deem it cheaper to do so than replace. However they only have one opportunity to do that before you are entitled to demand a full refund, so they may choose to replace - but you can't insist on it.

http://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/regulation/consumer-rights-act

Yeah, I know - but I'd try to be a bit of a pain about it  

Not saying I wouldn't trust them to do a good repair, but.. well... 

Blaendulais

richardhomer said:

Yes - get rid of it. If the timber was properly dried prior to manufacture, this shouldn't have happened - assuming that you're not keeping the guitar in excessively humid or dry conditions.

No - thanks Richard

Blaendulais

ICBM said:

Not yet - they have the option of repairing it first. They may choose to replace it though, since they will probably find it easier and it has less chance of coming back again. If they do try to repair it and the fault then comes back, I think you should insist on a replacement.

Out of interest, is it choking *only* at the 5th fret - in which case it's more likely to be a lifting 6th - or all around that area? If it's a lifting fret then re-seating it and possibly a light fret dress should fix it permanently. If it's the neck moving then the problem could well come back later.

All the way from there

Blaendulais

ICBM said:

Bridgehouse said:

I would usually agree, but at two months old I would be worried about other issues further on down the road.. my confidence would be marginal in it, whether it's a lifting fret, neck issue or whatever - I would be thinking "what else have they screwed up on it" and I'd be pushing all the buttons for a replacement.

They have the legal right to repair it if they want to, if they deem it cheaper to do so than replace. However they only have one opportunity to do that before you are entitled to demand a full refund, so they may choose to replace - but you can't insist on it.

http://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/regulation/consumer-rights-act

Thanks ICBM. Appreciated

Blaendulais

Bridgehouse said:

ICBM said:

Not yet - they have the option of repairing it first. They may choose to replace it though, since they will probably find it easier and it has less chance of coming back again. If they do try to repair it and the fault then comes back, I think you should insist on a replacement.

Out of interest, is it choking *only* at the 5th fret - in which case it's more likely to be a lifting 6th - or all around that area? If it's a lifting fret then re-seating it and possibly a light fret dress should fix it permanently. If it's the neck moving then the problem could well come back later.

I would usually agree, but at two months old I would be worried about other issues further on down the road.. my confidence would be marginal in it, whether it's a lifting fret, neck issue or whatever - I would be thinking "what else have they screwed up on it" and I'd be pushing all the buttons for a replacement.

Thanks

ICBM

Blaendulais said:

ICBM said:

Not yet - they have the option of repairing it first. They may choose to replace it though, since they will probably find it easier and it has less chance of coming back again. If they do try to repair it and the fault then comes back, I think you should insist on a replacement.

Out of interest, is it choking *only* at the 5th fret - in which case it's more likely to be a lifting 6th - or all around that area? If it's a lifting fret then re-seating it and possibly a light fret dress should fix it permanently. If it's the neck moving then the problem could well come back later.

All the way from there

That sounds serious. If the neck has developed a back-bow and fully loosening the truss rod doesn't cure it, some luthiers try heat treatment. But I've never seen it work in the long term, usually the problem comes back eventually.

The problem will be if they insist on repairing it, and it seems to be fixed for a while - possibly until after it's out of warranty - but then comes back. The only good news is that if this does happen, they cannot deny it was an inherent flaw (because the problem appeared within the first six months) so you should be able to push for a replacement even out of the actual warranty.

Try for a replacement first anyway, but don't be surprised if they say no.

Blaendulais

Update - Replaced by Gibson.  Hmmmmmmm.  How long will this one last

gitapik

One of my techs here in NYC has been around a while, now. He can be quite outspoken on many subjects and he has a major beef against Gibson ever since they left their Kalamazoo plant and relocated to Nashville in 1984.

Forget the labor issues that were involved and the volume of guitars that the company has to produce. His point has to do with the way that the climate in Nashville effects the wood that Gibson uses to create their guitars.

Nashville, Tennessee gets very hot and humid (the operative word here). Kalamazoo, Michigan is dry and gets cold in the winter. When wood is stored and worked on in a very humid environment, it will sometimes contract when it's shipped to, displayed, bought, and played in a drier climate. Very arid regions are the worst. A drier climate is, on the whole, a better environment for storing and working on wood that's used on fine tuned musical instruments and later shipped elsewhere.

My tech gets lots of new and not so new Gibsons in for neck adjustments and replacements. Fretwork well before you'd think it would be needed. Cracks and openings in the bodies of the acoustics, semi hollow, and hollow body guitars.

The new neck on your guitar could end up being just fine and, if so, you're in great shape. Those are nice guitars. I've played some newer Gibsons that were stellar. My tech says it's just a matter of their products not being consistent. Considering that you don't  know him or me from Adam, you can take all this with a grain of salt. I'm just passing on info that I've had an earful of over the years, lol.

On a related note, some of the workers from the original Gibson plant in Kalamazoo stuck around and formed their own company: Heritage Guitars. There are a lot of musicians who swear by their axes. No acoustics, though.

Dave_Mc

I thought Gibson made acoustics in Montana?

gitapik

Dave_Mc said:

I thought Gibson made acoustics in Montana?

Hah! Thanks for the correction.i never thought to ask. There's something I'll have to ask the tech about. Get him going on another rant, lol.

Don't know where that's coming from in that case. I do know that a friend of mine's got a mid '90s J200 that's in pretty bad shape. And he takes good care of his guitars.

i appreciate you bringing that up, Dave. I don't want to put out false information. 

gitapik

Damn...that's embarrassing, actually. I'll be paying him a visit, tomorrow. See what he has to say. 

Dave_Mc

^ Haha, no worries

Bridgehouse

Dave_Mc said:

I thought Gibson made acoustics in Montana?

Only since 1989.

They were Kalamazoo beforehand - since 1896 or so when Orville Gibson was a Mandolin maker first.

The classic 40's 50's and 60's Gibson Acoustics were all made in Kalamazoo - in the same rooms they made the classic mandolins back in the teens and early 20's. Same wood shed, same stockpile. 

Oh, and @gitapik - don't beat yourself up, your post is still valid. The classic Gibson Acoustics were made in Kalamazoo. It's a different climate to Bozeman. I remember the eyebrows being raised at the time when they moved there. "It's gonna change the sound, man"

Dave_Mc

^ Yeah that's true. I just assumed he was talking about the newer ones... reading his post better ( ) it seems he was talking about both newer and older ones.

gitapik

Thanks for the pat on the back, Dave. This past weekend was a foot in mouth one for me, if I ever saw one. I always want to be fair and as well informed...especially on the internet. "Fake News" is not just a Trump slogan.

I just spoke with my tech. He told me (kind of nicely) that I must have gotten him wrong. His main concerns/gripes are with the operations in Tennessee. He gets solid bodies from Nashville (that's the most prevalent) and semi-hollow/hollow body electrics from Memphis, Tennessee, as well.

He said the main reason for many of these repairs is, to his mind (I was surprised he said that), a result of the climate in Tennessee. He thinks part of the problem with all the Gibson guitars has to do with the sheer volume of what they produce, which is not a situation just limited to the Gibson company. Many of the Martins went down in quality from about the 1980s to mid 90s to 2000, as well. Prior to that they were a smaller scale operation. Very suddenly, they got MUCH bigger. Nowadays, they've righted the ship. But I see the same with Fenders. I always advise someone to try out a few before buying from these large scale operations. The quality can vary. 

I think one of the factors that comes into play when it comes to Gibson is that part of their move to Tennessee was to get away from the union workers in Minnesota. Money, money, money, money. Although that was not the only reason they moved (the town wasn't supportive and their facilities needed re-tooling, from what I've heard and read), it was definitely a part of their decision and it really rubbed some people the wrong way...all over the country. But Nashville's a serious music city and more power to them for getting the Gibson name associated with them. And I hear that the workers in the plant there are into their craft. 

Hoping the OP's new neck does the trick. Those really are nice guitars.