Speaker upgrade - are there other speakers that will just 'drop fit' into Celestion bolt spacings?

Voxman

Bridgehouse said:

Voxman said:

Yeah, I have a G12T75 in my Marshall Valvestate, but @ICBM warned me off for the 401 as it wouldnt do what I wanted. 

These aren't G12T75's... These are G12 75's. The 70's vintage ones def. sound different..

Ah, got you - sorry, didn't realise these weren't the same.   

Bridgehouse

Voxman said:

Bridgehouse said:

Voxman said:

Yeah, I have a G12T75 in my Marshall Valvestate, but @ICBM warned me off for the 401 as it wouldnt do what I wanted. 

These aren't G12T75's... These are G12 75's. The 70's vintage ones def. sound different..

Ah, got you - sorry, didn't realise these weren't the same.   

Worth checking if you can find one - will be cheap too!

ICBM

Not only are G12-75s very different from G12T-75s, the original T-75 is slightly different from the modern ones too - they have a vented magnet, which seems to give a chunkier bottom-end response.

I'd also like to hear a G12H-75 Creamback in a 401 at some point - the CL80 is my favourite of the speakers I've heard in them so far, but it's quite a modern-sounding speaker. From hearing the comparison in another cabinet, the H75 sounds more 'vintage', while still having the big open sound.

Voxman

ICBM said:

Not only are G12-75s very different from G12T-75s, the original T-75 is slightly different from the modern ones too - they have a vented magnet, which seems to give a chunkier bottom-end response.

I'd also like to hear a G12H-75 Creamback in a 401 at some point - the CL80 is my favourite of the speakers I've heard in them so far, but it's quite a modern-sounding speaker. From hearing the comparison in another cabinet, the H75 sounds more 'vintage', while still having the big open sound.

When you say 'modern sounding' @ICBM what do you mean?

ICBM

Voxman said:

When you say 'modern sounding' @ICBM what do you mean?

Tighter and punchier, with a clear top-end. The Creamback sounds looser and is smoother at the top-end.

Voxman

ICBM said:

Voxman said:

When you say 'modern sounding' @ICBM what do you mean?

Tighter and punchier, with a clear top-end. The Creamback sounds looser and is smoother at the top-end.

I mainly play classic rock & blues (think Led Zep, AC/DC, ZZ Top, Aerosmith, Free/Bad Company, Cream, Lynyrd Skynyrd, Humble Pie, Thin Lizzy, Dire Straits, Eric Clapton, BB King/Albert King, Albert Collins, SRV etc)  - would the Classic Lead 80 be good for this type of stuff? 

Update: Just found this comparison of the Celestion Vintage 30 compared to the Classic Lead 80  - to my ears the V30 sounds fuller, punchier, more open & and the CL80 sounds quite thin & muffled by comparison - is this a fair assessment?

Voxman

Also guys just looked for the G12 75 on Celestion site and can't seem to find it.  I found a G1265, G12(H)75, G12H75 Creamback, and G12 T75 - but no G12 75?  

ICBM

Voxman said:

I mainly play classic rock & blues (think Led Zep, AC/DC, ZZ Top, Aerosmith, Free/Bad Company, Cream, Lynyrd Skynyrd, Humble Pie, Thin Lizzy, Dire Straits, Eric Clapton, BB King/Albert King, Albert Collins, SRV etc)  - would the Classic Lead 80 be good for this type of stuff? 

Update: Just found this comparison of the Celestion Vintage 30 compared to the Classic Lead 80  - to my ears the V30 sounds fuller, punchier, more open & and the CL80 sounds quite thin & muffled by comparison - is this a fair assessment?

No. The 80 is cleaner and brighter, but it also has more deep bottom-end and has a more open sound. Not sure what they've done there.

But I think the Creamback G12H-75 would be better for the sounds you've listed.

Voxman said:

Also guys just looked for the G12 75 on Celestion site and can't seem to find it.  I found a G1265, G12(H)75, G12H75 Creamback, and G12 T75 - but no G12 75?  

It's an old model that hasn't been made since the 1970s. There's no modern equivalent, although the G12K-100 might be the closest, from memory of what they sound like.

Voxman

Thanks @ICBM - interesting that the video comparison seems to be so far out, & I'll look out for others.  The G12H-75 seems to be well liked on the Marshall forum too and the creambacks are 'liked' replacement (albeit the V30 is far and away the most popular).  

How does the G12 75 compare to the V30, CL80 & Creambacks?  (I can't seem to find much info on them)

Update: Just found this vid - it's only done with a very aggressive G'nR high gain tone but I can tell that the CL80 is toppier.  

I realise the V30 is particularly good in a 'multi-speaker cab' & I'm looking for a good tone with a 1x12, but on everything I've heard so far, the V30 sounds consistently good...I dunno, i'm beginning to lose the will to live.  Until I pick one & put a speaker in my 401 there's just no way to know!

Voxman

OK, with thanks to everyone for all your helpful input & suggestions, I think I've mucked everyone (& me) around enough, so I made a decision and decided to go for a Classic Lead 80 being offered by a very friendly and helpful Fret Boarder & I'll see how I get on with it.  It's got to be better than the stock speaker, no matter what, and it should get rid of the muddiness and fizziness that the stock Goldback gives, and add bottom end, sparkle and some greater definition.  

rico

Voxman said:

OK, with thanks to everyone for all your helpful input & suggestions, I think I've mucked everyone (& me) around enough, so I made a decision and decided to go for a Classic Lead 80 being offered by a very friendly and helpful Fret Boarder & I'll see how I get on with it.  It's got to be better than the stock speaker, no matter what, and it should get rid of the muddiness and fizziness that the stock Goldback gives, and add bottom end, sparkle and some greater definition.  

Great choice! It honestly sounds like a different amp. Lots of depth, mids are toasty warm and the top end is creamy smooth. That said I just use the clean channel with pedals so can't really comment on od1 or od2 but I will have a bash. 

Interested to know what you think! 

rico

@Voxman ;how are you getting on with the new speaker? I used the 401 at band practice today and I was very very impressed indeed. I had to double check that the bass player wasn't playing my riffs it was that punchy in the low end! Has some serious chunk and very smooth across all frequencies. 

Also it is a hell of a lot louder but that my well be the result of fresh power valves. Very happy indeed. Thanks @ICBM and others for the recommendation!

Voxman

Hi @rico - the Classic Lead is on its way and I hope to receive it on Tuesday. The speaker is pre-owned/used so it should be (at least partly) broken in.  Once I've had a chance to put it in and give it a good play, I'll report back.  It should certainly be louder - the CL80 is 99dB whereas I believe the stock Goldback is 97dB.   

ICBM

rico said:

@Voxman ;how are you getting on with the new speaker? I used the 401 at band practice today and I was very very impressed indeed. I had to double check that the bass player wasn't playing my riffs it was that punchy in the low end! Has some serious chunk and very smooth across all frequencies. 

Also it is a hell of a lot louder but that my well be the result of fresh power valves. Very happy indeed. Thanks @ICBM and others for the recommendation!

Probably a bit of both - it's hard to find a spec for the 'Marshall Gold Back' but it looks like a typical Celestion 97/98dB type, similar to a G12P-80. The Classic Lead is a 100dB type. 2dB is quite a lot, not exactly like doubling the power of the amp (that's 3dB), but a noticeable increase. As you've found, it has a lot more bottom-end too, which adds to the impression of power.

Voxman

ICBM said:

rico said:

@Voxman ;;how are you getting on with the new speaker? I used the 401 at band practice today and I was very very impressed indeed. I had to double check that the bass player wasn't playing my riffs it was that punchy in the low end! Has some serious chunk and very smooth across all frequencies. 

Also it is a hell of a lot louder but that my well be the result of fresh power valves. Very happy indeed. Thanks @ICBM and others for the recommendation!

Probably a bit of both - it's hard to find a spec for the 'Marshall Gold Back' but it looks like a typical Celestion 97/98dB type, similar to a G12P-80. The Classic Lead is a 100dB type. 2dB is quite a lot, not exactly like doubling the power of the amp (that's 3dB), but a noticeable increase. As you've found, it has a lot more bottom-end too, which adds to the impression of power.

Celestion show the CL80 in its technical spec as sensitivity rating of 99dB. 

ICBM

Voxman said:

Celestion show theCL80 in its technical spec as 99dB. 

You seem to be right - which is odd, because they've definitely listed it as 100dB in the past, and it's exactly as loud as a V30 when you put them side by side...

But they do seem to have 1dB inconsistencies on quite a lot of their models at different times - the Greenback as well, that's currently rated at 98dB and has definitely been 97 in the past.

Voxman

ICBM said:

Voxman said:

Celestion show theCL80 in its technical spec as 99dB. 

You seem to be right - which is odd, because they've definitely listed it as 100dB in the past, and it's exactly as loud as a V30 when you put them side by side...

But they do seem to have 1dB inconsistencies on quite a lot of their models at different times - the Greenback as well, that's currently rated at 98dB and has definitely been 97 in the past.

I suspect its a move to a more accurate 'rounding up' approach.  For example, WGS show very accurate sensitivity ratings e.g. the Veteran 30 is 99.84dB.  Celestion would likely round that up to 100dB.  The WGS Black & blue Alnico is rated at 99.49 dB.  Perhaps Celestion in their speakers previously would have rounded that up to 100dB, but now have rounded it down to 99dB. 

It might be that the V30 is 99.64 and the CL80 99.49, or something like that, where the 'rounding' shows a 1dB difference but in reality the difference is negligible & why they have the same volume side by side. 

ICBM

If you look at the response curves, I have a strong suspicion that they just make it up, actually! There's no way they can be anything like that precise. The sensitivity varies by almost 40dB over the whole audio range, and up to 20dB even over the middle part of the 'guitar' range. At best, it's a weighted average… the question is how they weight it.

The figures don't quite correspond to reality either - for example the Greenback is listed as 98dB, the G12H-30 as 100dB, and the V30 also as 100dB… but if you put these in a cabinet as pairs, the Greenback and the H30 are about the same perceived volume but the V30 is noticeably louder.

Voxman

ICBM said:

If you look at the response curves, I have a strong suspicion that they just make it up, actually! There's no way they can be anything like that precise. The sensitivity varies by almost 40dB over the whole audio range, and up to 20dB even over the middle part of the 'guitar' range. At best, it's a weighted average… the question is how they weight it.

The figures don't quite correspond to reality either - for example the Greenback is listed as 98dB, the G12H-30 as 100dB, and the V30 also as 100dB… but if you put these in a cabinet as pairs, the Greenback and the H30 are about the same perceived volume but the V30 is noticeably louder.

Perhaps the V30 seems louder not just because of sensitivity, but partly because of its frequency output range that our ears perceive as being louder - the Greenback and H30 are after all much 'smoother/warmer' than the V30 and so its likely that at these frequencies minor differences in sensitivity don't translate to any noticeable volume differences.  However, the V30 is by design brasher/more aggressive sounding with those mid-hump 'spikes' that will jump out at you more and emphasise volume difference.  

Even Celestion suggests that when mixing speakers in a cab, you're unlikely to perceive any volume imbalance provided you stay within a 3dB range:

http://celestion.com/speakerworld/guitartech/1/38/Speaker_Upgrade:_Sensitivity_Matching/

ICBM

Voxman said:

Perhaps the V30 seems louder not just because of sensitivity, but partly because of its frequency output range that our ears perceive as being louder - the Greenback and H30 are after all much 'smoother/warmer' than the V30 and so its likely that at these frequencies minor differences in sensitivity don't translate to any noticeable volume differences.  However, the V30 is by design brasher/more aggressive sounding with those mid-hump 'spikes' that will jump out at you more and emphasise volume difference.  

Even Celestion suggests that when mixing speakers in a cab, you're unlikely to perceive any volume imbalance provided you stay within a 3dB range:

http://celestion.com/speakerworld/guitartech/1/38/Speaker_Upgrade:_Sensitivity_Matching/

That's exactly my point - although not hearing a difference if they're within 3dB isn't really right either! If you put a Greenback and an H30 in the same cab, they sound the same volume. If you put an H30 and a V30 together, the V30 is louder. So it's more to do with frequency response than it is to do with measured sensitivity.

However there are real differences too - there's no doubt that the Classic Lead simply moves more air than the 'Marshall Gold Back'.