90Db limit

firepaulmusic

We've been booked to play a wedding at a so-called posh venue. They've sent me a long list of Ts and Cs relating to the booking of the venue (not interested as I didn't book it) and payment details etc. There is mention of behaviour standards (guests and band members both get a mention) and a strict 90Db limit for all live music. Now I know that the limit for noise in the workplace before having to provide and wear ear protection is around 85Db so - how loud is the average function band?

Danny1969

If it's 90dB A weighted then that's pretty common .... in your average band the snare hit will be the loudest peak and a sustained snare roll is the most likely thing to trigger the limiter

There's various ways around this generally. First up try and talk sensibly to the staff, tell them your stay under the limit but you would prefer not to have the mains cut if you do momentarily exceed the limit as your desk is digital and damaged by power cuts . So can you power the band off a socket not on the ring controlled by the limiter

If that don't work look to see how the limiter is wired. If it's external mic then an inline voltage divider is my normal tool , basically 3 resistors in a cable but some use XLR, some use 3.5mm or 1\4 jack

Finally if all else fails use a large UPS. I have a large 8U HP UPS capable of putting out 2.2KW for 12 mins and if need be I will run the whole band from that ... when doing so the limiter tripping the mains has no effect at all on the band 

MikkiMcMurderer

Great idea Danny the problem is if the bastards use a hand held db metre and just order u to turn down during the gig and you can't cos the drum kit unmicd is louder than the limit! Then it turns into an argument of "why do you advertise to your clients that you can have bands when your sound restrictions mean you blatantly can't!" 

Norwegian_Blue

@firepaulmusic What's the venue? (Feel free to PM if you don't want to go public!) I may have experience of it! Have they stated where that DB limit applies? 

koneguitarist

Played a place once, where the audience clapping would set system off, we had to tell people to clap quietly. And a certain Conservative club (not naming names but it's in Yeovil) kept telling us to turn down so much that we turned PA and everything off and me and singer did one song with acoustic and vocal, still told us to turn down so we walked out! 

bob21

As always.. Numbers without specification is pointless.
90dBC Fast would be very, very hard to manage - whereas 90dBa LAEq 15mins is very definitely not unachievable for a live band..

I would always suggest you go back to the venue and ask exactly what specification they are measuring to - and of course, checking that their measurement equipment is within Class II calibration specs.. This is often enough to make them realise you know what you're on about, and go away!

But it's not unachievable to play at 90dBa average - yes, your drummer will need to reign it in a bit, and no marshall stacks all at 10... but it is doable! Do things like - mic amps up/di, and use the PA as much as possible, if any of you are happy with In Ears, use them to cut stage noise..

(Having said that, *if* it's politically acceptable, Danny's solutions also solve the problem a different way!)

ThorpyFX

This smacks of the fun police ruining things, I feel for you. Our wedding was mentally loud, such a cool atmosphere cos of it!

firepaulmusic

Norwegian_Blue said:

@firepaulmusic What's the venue? (Feel free to PM if you don't want to go public!) I may have experience of it! Have they stated where that DB limit applies? 

It's Kilver Court, Shepton Mallet and the Db limit is "for all performance music"...

ICBM

koneguitarist said:

Played a place once, where the audience clapping would set system off, we had to tell people to clap quietly. And a certain Conservative club (not naming names but it's in Yeovil) kept telling us to turn down so much that we turned PA and everything off and me and singer did one song with acoustic and vocal, still told us to turn down so we walked out! 

I've had exactly that experience too, although not in a Conservative club! I've always wondered if we were actually too loud or if they just didn't like us and wanted an excuse to get us off. (We got paid anyway, so I didn't care.)

In general I don't have a problem with being asked to play quietly, but limiters are a major pain in the backside if they trip and I would probably refuse to play the gig if running the gear from one is a condition of it. Fair enough to use it as a guide, but risking damaging your gear by having it crudely shut off isn't.

That said, it surprises me that any gear isn't designed so it's not possible to damage it if the power fails for any other reason either, but it does seem to be.

firepaulmusic

I reckon I'll contact the venue about the power cut off thing. We've just started using the Behringer X-Air system and I don't know how that will react to being killed.....

mike257

Unfortunately this is often something imposed on a venue by the local council either as a condition of licensing or after noise complaints from residents. Whilst it's frustrating, it's also in your interest to be understanding and work within it as best you can - wedding gigs aren't a big rock show, and ideally you want to be loud for people on the dancefloor but quiet enough elsewhere in the room for Auntie Mable and Uncle Alf to have a conversation at the table. The venue will appreciate a positive attitude.

I was out last night with a seven piece soul band in a venue with noise restrictions - drummer played with rods, bass and guitar through the PA and backline right down low so it was just enough for a splash of personal monitoring. Yes, the vibe on stage was a bit crap compared to when we can play "properly", but the dancefloor was still full and the client was still happy. If you're going to do weddings, you'll run in to it all the time and will just have to come up with a way of dealing with it.

The manager at the venue was telling us how much of a nightmare he has with bands over it, people trying to be rock and roll and announcing over the mic that "we've been told to turn it down so we're going to turn it up". It's self destructive because you end up no longer being welcome at the venue, or the venue gets one too many noise complaints and has to stop having live music altogether and there's one less place for us all to gig. We were understanding and co-operative and left having been invited to quote for two more weddings that the manager was booking in for friends of his, and to consult on their new sound system installation! 

kennedydream1980

There is a wedding venue near us that last year installed a huge Marquee for weddings/events. Unfortunately they placed it right next to a boundary fence  with the Caravan park next door.

They had complaints about noise from said Caravan park pretty much from week one, and had to install a sound limiter which was set at 90db, which is literally nothing in a huge Marquee.

We played there twice last year and had alot of problems. We got through both gigs, just, but not without a lot of complaints, mainly from wedding guests for us to turn up!!

The 2nd time we played there we got the drummer to take his high end Roland electronic kit, as the acoustic drums caused all manor of problems the first time round.

We had the bride and groom on one side of the stage complaining they weren't getting there monies worth and asking us to turn up, and on the other side of the stage we had the hotel events manager shouting at us to turn down, we were literally stuck in the middle.

We tripped the power a few times which in turn blew the fuse on my amp, so then I had to scramble around trying to sort it out (Ended up going direct to the desk). It was all a huge pain in the arse.

We were documenting the problems we were having throughout the evening on social media, which in turn the hotel events manager seen. She subsequently told us we must delete all of it as it was bad publicity for her venue, and the limiter would scare of bands which would in turn scare of potential wedding clients!! No shit Sherlock :-)

Safe to say we haven't been back and any enquiries that have came in we have had to advise that it's not possible for a band to play there.

p90fool

We play pretty quietly and our drummer will happily use rods or even brushes if necessary, but some venues are just hopeless.

I will no longer play anywhere where they won't guarantee an electricity supply, we're actually at work trying to do a paid job, the same as a plumber or bricklayer would be.

We were once booked for Ludlow assembly rooms and there happened to be a poetry recital in the room next door. The woman running the recital saw us dragging drums an amps in and asked us to keep the volume down.
 We duly soundchecked very quietly, and just as she came smiling back into the room to tell she couldn't hear us at all next door the limiter cut our power off - even she was horrified by how sensitive it was.

We couldn't play, the police were called when the punters went nuts at the council guy who'd been summoned and we made him stand on the stage to tell everyone why a very expensive 60th birthday party was cancelled.

What really pissed me off is that they have name bands at that venue all the time, you can bet they don't cut their power mid song.

maltingsaudio

firepaulmusic said:

Norwegian_Blue said:

@firepaulmusic What's the venue? (Feel free to PM if you don't want to go public!) I may have experience of it! Have they stated where that DB limit applies? 

It's Kilver Court, Shepton Mallet and the Db limit is "for all performance music"...

I live just up the road from Kilver Court, they are experiencing loads of problems with noise complaints, even to the point of having noiseless fireworks, move your slot to the Bell you can make as much noise as you want to there!

digitalscream

It strikes me that the best way to approach this is to ask the venue if their liability insurance covers damage to your equipment (repair and/or replacement) caused by their limiter shutting it off. They'll most likely be hard-line about it until it looks like it'll hit their profits.

andyoz

It's probably a 90dBA Leq level which is unworkable for live music IME.  You need at least 95dBA.  Most bands run at around 100dBA if left alone (some much more obviously)

I've setup a lot of venue limited over the years.  It's weird that they are doing the limiting using handheld meter which suggests to me that the issue hasn't escalated to Local Authority enforcement.  They would normally demand a calibrated microphone system that either: 1) shuts off power, or 2) has a 'level controller' box that you have to insert inline between your mixer and power amps (this doesn't deal with backline sound energy though)

vasselmeyer

Played a pub last night which had been forced to put a limiter in. When we got there, the landlady told us to plug a couple of extensions into it so it looked as it was being used, but to actually plug our gear into some normal sockets which were hidden away somewhere. She couldn't get bands to play there when the limiter was in use so she just made it look like they were being used.

UnclePsychosis

If I was in a wedding or function band I would definitely be making sure that the contract the bookers were signing (you do have contracts, right?) had a very clear clause along the lines of "if your venue has sound limiting, then that's your choice---don't then ask us to turn up the volume, disappointment not our fault, etc etc etc".

EricTheWeary

I've played a couple of venues last year with sound limits but they were both subject to time limits - curfew on the noise effectively. At the last one we had to shut up by 10pm because of the neighbours. The same neighbours who let off some ear deafening fireworks at 11pm 

RocknRollDave

UnclePsychosis said:

If I was in a wedding or function band I would definitely be making sure that the contract the bookers were signing (you do have contracts, right?) had a very clear clause along the lines of "if your venue has sound limiting, then that's your choice---don't then ask us to turn up the volume, disappointment not our fault, etc etc etc".

Annoyingly, sometimes the venues do not tell the couple about the limiter, and to be fair your average non-musician can be forgiven for not asking the question of the venue, but I do agree that it needs to be written into the contract.
As a wedding band, it is a given that you will play venues with limiters. The drummer needs an electronic kit, unfortunately. Not cheap being a drummer in a function band!

UnclePsychosis

RocknRollDave said:

UnclePsychosis said:

If I was in a wedding or function band I would definitely be making sure that the contract the bookers were signing (you do have contracts, right?) had a very clear clause along the lines of "if your venue has sound limiting, then that's your choice---don't then ask us to turn up the volume, disappointment not our fault, etc etc etc".

Annoyingly, sometimes the venues do not tell the couple about the limiter, and to be fair your average non-musician can be forgiven for not asking the question of the venue, but I do agree that it needs to be written into the contract.
As a wedding band, it is a given that you will play venues with limiters. The drummer needs an electronic kit, unfortunately. Not cheap being a drummer in a function band!

You're right that the couple might not know, but the band should prompt them to find out---just as they should also prompt them to make sure that there's enough space/power etc available too.