Microphone-based pickup system for acoustics

robinbowes

I've got a Takamine EF261S WR with a CT-4B preamp.

It looks like (and sounds like, when using the internal pickup) this:



I much prefer the acoustic sound - something like this:



For live work, are there any microphone-based pickup systems that can produce more of the acoustic sound?

Thanks,

R.

Lewy

Before you think about changing the electronics in your guitar, as it has an under saddle piezo you might find that plugging into a Fishman Aura would give you all the improvement you're looking for. But in terms of other pickup/mic options....

There are quite a few mic-based systems, not least of which are.....microphones! No, they are not feasible in all situations but they are feasible in a lot more situations than they seem to get used in these days. My favourite mics for live are the AKG C1000, Rode NT5 and the humble SM57. 

Then there are clip on mics like the DPA 4099G, K&K Meridian and Audio Technica AT350, Pro70 and AT831. Despite some of the makers' claims, they are often no less prone to feedback than ordinary mics you might put on a stand, but they can be a bit more convenient and of course more consistent sounding because the relationship between the guitar and the mic doesn't change when you move.

There are also internal mics like the MiniFlex 2, and a few manufacturers have dual source pickup systems that combine either a under saddle or soundboard transducer with an internal mic on some sort of gooseneck.

There there are more "pickup-like" solutions which incorporate mics. These would include the LR Baggs Lyric, which is technically a mic but it mounts on the bridgeplate, The LR Baggs Anthem that pairs the same mic model with an under saddle pickup and uses a crossover so the under saddle does the low frequencies and the mic does the high frequencies (idea being you can use it in less forgiving environments), the Fishman Rare Earth Blend and Seymour Duncan MagMic which both combine a magnetic sound hole pickup with a built in mic.

I've had experience of most but not all of the above and my conclusion is that understanding what your typical live setting is like is critical to finding the right one. If it's plugging in at an open mic, or playing in noisy environments whilst doing your own sound, and with limited sound checking, forget the lot of them and go with a K&K Pure Mini soundboard transducer which will get you 80% of the way there with none of the hassle. It will sound immeasurably better than the pickup in your Tak and only be a little bit more feedback prone. 

mgaw

+1 for the K&K, simple but very effective with a good preamp

aljdelaney

I have a rather convoluted two pickup/signal system in my acoustics, I use the fishman rare earth (I think) for an electric sounding signal, and the Maton AP5 Mic Pro for my acoustic (both signals have their own pedal chain, and end up in a multi channel preamp blender).

I spent my youth trying to be Jeff Lang.

Whilst not everybody is a fan of Maton guitars, I can honestly say I am yet to find a better acoustic pickup than the Maton AP5 Mic Pro. But it's pricey.

So +1 for the k&k. Its great value. 

Lewy

aljdelaney said:

Whilst not everybody is a fan of Maton guitars, I can honestly say I am yet to find a better acoustic pickup than the Maton AP5 Mic Pro. But it's pricey.

So +1 for the k&k. Its great value. 

I played at TommyFest a few years back and so there where lot of Matons around...any time someone plugged anything else in you realised just how good the Matons sounded. 

robinbowes

I have two use cases:

1. folky duo with female singer. Will be doing gigs, open mics, etc
2. strummy stuff with 8-piece TexMex band. Currently just using the built-in pickup for this.

Any idea where to get a Maton?

R.

Lewy

robinbowes said:

I have two use cases:

1. folky duo with female singer. Will be doing gigs, open mics, etc
2. strummy stuff with 8-piece TexMex band. Currently just using the built-in pickup for this.

Any idea where to get a Maton?

R.

If you're playing in an 8-piece band then personally I'd just stick with what you've got and maybe get an Aura pedal. With dual source systems that incorporate mics, like Maton's AP5 Pro, I think you'd find yourself struggling to ever be able to dial in enough mic to make it worth being there. Unless you have an awesome sound engineer and a load of soundcheck time dedicated to your guitar, that is.

ICBM

I agree with Lewy. While the idea of a mic-based onboard system is nice, and in a low-volume/solo environment they can sound a lot better than a straight pickup, as the volume and the mix density increases they become more and more problematic and pointless - and at the end of the day they *still* don't sound as good as even a cheap external mic. I would also agree that the Maton system is the best I've heard of the onboard ones though.

The Aura is a very fussy system to set up for the best results. I've never tried it with a Takamine, but I wouldn't expect it to work as well as using a straight pickup - I've got one which I use with my Gibson Dove with a plain Fishman AG094 (which sounds very nasty on its own), and it sounds great - but less so with my Gibson CJ which has its original LR Baggs preamped undersaddle pickup.

crunchman

I've got a Fishman blender factory fitted in a Martin.  That's undersaddle with a gooseneck mic.  Adding the mic in does make it a lot more natural sounding.  You can't use a lot because of feedback and handling noise but even 20% mic blended in makes a significant difference for the better.

That blender is the best pickup I've got but it would probably cost somewhere around £300 to get something like that fitted.  I've got a K&K Pure Mini in another guitar and (as others have said above) it's very good.  It gets you most of the way there at a much lower cost.

The other option (Aura on the cheap if you like) is the TC BodyRez.  I picked one up second hand on the classifieds for around £50.  I've got a cheaper guitar with just an undersaddle that I take places I won't take my nice Martin that I use the Body Rez with.  It does improve the sound and make it sound more natural.

Boss have recently bought out something as well that uses digital trickery to add "acoustic resonance" to the sound.  If that had been out a couple of months earlier I'd have bought that instead of the BodyRez - if only because I trust Boss pedals not to break.
http://www.guitarguitar.co.uk/pedals_s_detail.asp?stock=161026303211008&gclid=CMuX7_eWodICFeQp0wodyvIMsA

robinbowes

Another thought I've just had...

I got what I thought was quite a reasonable sound from the Takamine pickup by recording direct into Logic and applying a Taylor IR. Sounds like this:



Presumably, I could do something similar live? Another reason to consider a Helix!

R.

crunchman

robinbowes said:

Presumably, I could do something similar live? Another reason to consider a Helix!

R.

If you are thinking about a Helix anyway then it makes sense.

Otherwise it would be a lot cheaper to try the TC or Boss pedals first.

robinbowes

crunchman said:

robinbowes said:

Presumably, I could do something similar live? Another reason to consider a Helix!

R.

If you are thinking about a Helix anyway then it makes sense.

Otherwise it would be a lot cheaper to try the TC or Boss pedals first.

Yeah, I'm thinking about getting one anyway - I have a bit more gear to sell first.

R.

Lewy

robinbowes said:

Another thought I've just had...

I got what I thought was quite a reasonable sound from the Takamine pickup by recording direct into Logic and applying a Taylor IR. Sounds like this:



Presumably, I could do something similar live? Another reason to consider a Helix!

R.

That sounds really good. What's this Taylor IR business all about then?

robinbowes

Lewy said:

That sounds really good. What's this Taylor IR business all about then?

IR = impulse response

One of the plugins in Logic allows you to apply an impulse response to the signal. I found an impulse response of a Taylor 314ce recorded with a Neumann U87 on t'Internet somewhere and applied it to the raw signal from the Takamine pickup (plus a bit of reverb and possibly compression).

R.

Lewy

robinbowes said:

Lewy said:

That sounds really good. What's this Taylor IR business all about then?

IR = impulse response

One of the plugins in Logic allows you to apply an impulse response to the signal. I found an impulse response of a Taylor 314ce recorded with a Neumann U87 on t'Internet somewhere and applied it to the raw signal from the Takamine pickup (plus a bit of reverb and possibly compression).

R.

Aaah ok. I've got Logic so will have to investigate. Presumably you do it within Space Designer?

I've always wondered why there wasn't a software version of something like an Aura that you could use as a plug in on a DI's guitar in a DAW....

TimmyO

Lewy said:

robinbowes said:

Lewy said:

That sounds really good. What's this Taylor IR business all about then?

IR = impulse response

One of the plugins in Logic allows you to apply an impulse response to the signal. I found an impulse response of a Taylor 314ce recorded with a Neumann U87 on t'Internet somewhere and applied it to the raw signal from the Takamine pickup (plus a bit of reverb and possibly compression).

R.

Aaah ok. I've got Logic so will have to investigate. Presumably you do it within Space Designer?

I've always wondered why there wasn't a software version of something like an Aura that you could use as a plug in on a DI's guitar in a DAW....

Some of the people who sell 3rd party cab IRs also sell acoustic instrument IRs  eg http://www.3sigmaaudio.com/acoustic-impulses/ ;

robinbowes

Thinking about this further... with an appropriate IR and convolver, I might get away without an acoustic guitar at all for the band situations. Result!

R.

Lewy

Sorry to go off topic but I spent some time googling acoustic IRs and found some awesome stuff. Someone has managed to somehow rip a bunch of Aura images, all of the ones from a D-tar Mama Bear and a bunch of others.

Sadly most of the Collings ones don't play nicely with the K&Ks I've got in mine - resonance on top of resonance doesn't sound good - but there's a Taylor one and a Hummingbird that sound quite good - certainly good enough for demos.

Thanks for opening my eyes to this!

robinbowes

Post links!

Lewy

robinbowes said:

Post links!

https://drive.google...FJLQ241WTg/view
https://www.dropbox....vV4YwMY7Wa?dl=0

robinbowes

Thanks. I've got those Taylor ones (my soundcloud snippet uses one). I'll be very interested to see how they work in a live environment.

R.