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NGD - The Worst Guitar Fender Ever Released? Blacktop Baritone

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Just picked up one of these... bit of a mess, will cost me £50-100 to get it in shape, and that's ok on a guitar I picked up for under £400, but if you got one of these new for £700+? It would have gone right back to the store.

The problem is.... they were ALL like this from what I gather. No idea what Fender were thinking! 


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Comments

  • Excellent video.

    I've got (but am about to sell) the Blacktop Stratocaster. I'm pleased to report that it's really good, but you'd think that Fender would have gotten the hand of making a Strat by now, even one with two HB's... though the string tree on mine was screwed right down too.
    I'm only selling it as I'm incapable of playing it without cracking my knuckles off the volume pot- back to LP types I go.
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  • Have to admit i have been hankering after a Blacktop for a while now. whats the verdict @stimpsonslostson ;
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  • impmannimpmann Frets: 12649
    I'm still trying to get my head around the comments on the machine heads - you say the tension of the strings is too great for the machine heads and so the tuning stability is compromised. So can you grab the string, pull hard and watch the capstan unwind?
    Never Ever Bloody Anything Ever.

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  • "See if you can tell what it is......" (without reading the title of the video you just clicked on...)  D'oh!

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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 71963
    Some of the Cyclones, where they fitted the bridge in the wrong place so they're impossible to intonate without replacing it with one with longer saddle travel, must be a candidate.

    The Telecoustic/Stratacoustics were generally pretty poor too - often very badly set up (especially the nut) and with really nasty-sounding electrics.

    I can't really think of very many total dog models they've made though.

    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone." - Walt Kowalski

    "Just because I don't care, doesn't mean I don't understand." - Homer Simpson

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  • Have to admit i have been hankering after a Blacktop for a while now. whats the verdict @stimpsonslostson ;
    Great looking and sounding strat- perfect for the rock and blues I prefer to play.
    I totally get this bodyshape now- it's really comfortable & I've even been using the trem on occasion! The issue is entirely user error- I get into a song and then start flailing away... right into the volume pot. 
    Every. Damn. Time.

    The best way to explain the situation:


    It's a testament to Fender build quality that there's NO damage to the guitar whatsoever!
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  • impmann said:
    I'm still trying to get my head around the comments on the machine heads - you say the tension of the strings is too great for the machine heads and so the tuning stability is compromised. So can you grab the string, pull hard and watch the capstan unwind?
    It's not a hard concept to understand. Regardless of gear ratio, a tuning peg only needs to move a micron and you'll have gone flat.

    No, you can't sit and watch it spin round, but even after the strings are suitably stretched, any bends over a half step put enough tension on the peg that you're about a quarter step flat when it releases.

    While it's the tension that's the problem, the solution isn't lower tension (obviously) it's machineheads fit for purpose.
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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 71963
    impmann said:
    I'm still trying to get my head around the comments on the machine heads - you say the tension of the strings is too great for the machine heads and so the tuning stability is compromised. So can you grab the string, pull hard and watch the capstan unwind?
    It's not a hard concept to understand. Regardless of gear ratio, a tuning peg only needs to move a micron and you'll have gone flat.

    No, you can't sit and watch it spin round, but even after the strings are suitably stretched, any bends over a half step put enough tension on the peg that you're about a quarter step flat when it releases.
    That's not possible with any remotely decent machinehead that's strung properly and tuned up to the note. For the gear to actually slip like that, it's got to physically bend metal.

    You can make 1960s Hofner machineheads - and other similarly primitive vintage ones - work perfectly well if you string and tune them properly, so I'd be astonished if that wasn't true with any heads Fender use in the 21st century.

    I may be wrong, but I've never come across anything like that...

    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone." - Walt Kowalski

    "Just because I don't care, doesn't mean I don't understand." - Homer Simpson

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  • RockerRocker Frets: 4947
    Easy. Most of their output from the 1970s is little better than firewood. The odd 'good one' might have got out but....
    Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. [Albert Einstein]

    Nil Satis Nisi Optimum

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  • impmannimpmann Frets: 12649
    impmann said:
    I'm still trying to get my head around the comments on the machine heads - you say the tension of the strings is too great for the machine heads and so the tuning stability is compromised. So can you grab the string, pull hard and watch the capstan unwind?
    It's not a hard concept to understand. Regardless of gear ratio, a tuning peg only needs to move a micron and you'll have gone flat.

    No, you can't sit and watch it spin round, but even after the strings are suitably stretched, any bends over a half step put enough tension on the peg that you're about a quarter step flat when it releases.

    While it's the tension that's the problem, the solution isn't lower tension (obviously) it's machineheads fit for purpose.
    OK, I get you - but in the majority of cases I've seen where people claim this, its the nut that's at fault or bad string windings on the capstan rather than a mechanical fault with the machine head. I've read a few reviews of these where the nut cutting is criticised (and tuning stability is compromised) - I just wondered if that was the case here. Certainly, if you look at the quality of the machine heads on the Danelectro Baritone you mentioned, they are way behind those on the Fender, being Kluson copies (probably made by Ping).

    I also wonder what the increase in tension actually is, based on the lengthened scale in conjunction with the lower pitch compared to a Mex Tele with say, 13s on it. Normally those machine heads are perfectly sufficient for hefty 'normal' strings - even at open E with 13s, that's why I questioned it.

    :-)


    Never Ever Bloody Anything Ever.

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  • It's hard to explain - they feel "loose", like there's "play" in them before anything happens.
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  • It's hard to explain - they feel "loose", like there's "play" in them before anything happens.
    But you said it wasn't a hard concept to understand? 
    How very rock and roll
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  • It's hard to explain - they feel "loose", like there's "play" in them before anything happens.
    But you said it wasn't a hard concept to understand? 
    Yes, in the same way that evolution isn't a hard concept to explain, but it's hard for me to show it to you.

    It's not uncommon for us to find it hard to explain how something FEELS because I understand that we all describe sensory input differently. 
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  • Jack_Jack_ Frets: 3175
    A Tele shouldn't have a middle pickup, and it should always have an ashtray style bridge. It's the law, the rules, the 11th commandment.
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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 71963
    Rocker said:
    Easy. Most of their output from the 1970s is little better than firewood. The odd 'good one' might have got out but....
    I've said this before I know, but you can actually make these into decent guitars if you strip them right down and rebuild them, using the original wood and most of the parts but doing it right. Of course, in the process you will also "devalue" it by about half…

    impmann said:

    in the majority of cases I've seen where people claim this, its the nut that's at fault or bad string windings on the capstan rather than a mechanical fault with the machine head.
    This is true. When I worked in a big music shop, one of the most common jobs I got asked to do was "fit a new set of machineheads because the guitar won't stay in tune". In at least 9 out of 10 cases there was nothing wrong with the machineheads - it was the nut or the way they were strung or tuned that was the problem. I would always explain this and demonstrate by setting the guitar up properly, rather than fitting replacement heads, hence saving the customer some cash… over the years I've probably talked myself out of the value of a pretty nice guitar or two by doing that. A lot of repairers would just fit the new heads - which is why you see so many nice old guitars drilled out for Schallers or Grovers - but the guitar still wouldn't stay in tune.

    impmann said:

    I also wonder what the increase in tension actually is, based on the lengthened scale in conjunction with the lower pitch compared to a Mex Tele with say, 13s on it. Normally those machine heads are perfectly sufficient for hefty 'normal' strings - even at open E with 13s, that's why I questioned it.
    Exactly, the tension on baritone strings is no greater than standard ones - that's the whole point of using a longer scale, and they're tuned down anyway.

    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone." - Walt Kowalski

    "Just because I don't care, doesn't mean I don't understand." - Homer Simpson

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  • Exactly, the tension on baritone strings is no greater than standard ones - that's the whole point of using a longer scale, and they're tuned down anyway.
    If thats the case then why arent bass guitar tuning pegs the just same size as regular guitar ones but with a bigger string hole?
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  • Exactly, the tension on baritone strings is no greater than standard ones - that's the whole point of using a longer scale, and they're tuned down anyway.
    If thats the case then why arent bass guitar tuning pegs the just same size as regular guitar ones but with a bigger string hole?
    They need to be taller for a start, a couple of winds of a .100+ guage string wouldn't fit on a standard guitar tuner.  Off the top of my head I think I only get onto the second wind on my .064 low B on my guitars.  Likewise I'm using a .130 for a low B on my bass and if you drilled out a standard guitar tuner to that size it probably wouldn't be structurally rigid enough at the hole (if it's even possible)

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  • Jack_ said:
    A Tele shouldn't have a middle pickup, and it should always have an ashtray style bridge. It's the law, the rules, the 11th commandment.
    I agree - don't worry, my other 5 teles all have real bridges haha
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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 71963
    edited February 2017
    Exactly, the tension on baritone strings is no greater than standard ones - that's the whole point of using a longer scale, and they're tuned down anyway.
    If thats the case then why arent bass guitar tuning pegs the just same size as regular guitar ones but with a bigger string hole?
    Because you can't bend a bass string round that small a post without snapping it, usually.

    Some vintage basses - eg Hofners - do have very small posts, and this is a problem with them if you don't use very flexible strings.

    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone." - Walt Kowalski

    "Just because I don't care, doesn't mean I don't understand." - Homer Simpson

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  • guitars4youguitars4you Frets: 14039
    tFB Trader
    Some of the Contempoary Strats from the 80's with System 1/11/111 were very average - and that trem with a locking top nut that used a 'leverage arm' on the Top E string side to lock/release- https://reverb.com/item/242582-fender-mij-fender-system-3-neck-with-locking-lever-nut-later-1980-s-maple-rose-neck-chrome-lever-nut

    I dare say the Fender Katana and indeed the Squier version will have their fan clubs and haters
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