NGD - The Worst Guitar Fender Ever Released? Blacktop Baritone

Octafish

missmisstreater said:

It's hard to explain - they feel "loose", like there's "play" in them before anything happens.

Aren't they the same machine heads as Mexican Standards though? They're not known to be bad machineheads. Are the strings corrrectly tied at the machine head i.e doubled back to lock them as you wind them round the post? So many times i've seen (on modern style tuners) strings just poked through the hole and then wound on to the post.

Picked up a Squier Strat cheap years ago beacuse the owner claimed it wouldnt stay in tune, I strung it up properly and it stayed in tune just fine.

missmisstreater

ICBM said:

That's not possible with any remotely decent machinehead that's strung properly and tuned up to the note. For the gear to actually slip like that, it's got to physically bend metal.

Well that's patently false isn't it? You turn the machinehead and the post turns. Are you suggesting that if I took pliers and tried to turn the post... it wouldn't? If so, it would be in violation of Newton's third law. There's no locking system in place is there? It's just a case of the tension exerted on the post not being enough to cause any tiny changes. Here though, there is change. Tiny tiny tiny change, but the lbs of tension to hz vibration ratio is so high that a small change makes a big difference.

ICBM said:
I may be wrong, but I've never come across anything like that...

So what this indicates is that you don't mean "that's not possible", you meant "I don't think that's possible". There's a reason people upgrade tuners though, and tuning stability is one of those reasons.

missmisstreater

ICBM said:

That's not possible with any remotely decent machinehead that's strung properly and tuned up to the note. For the gear to actually slip like that, it's got to physically bend metal.

Well that's patently false isn't it? You turn the machinehead and the post turns. Are you suggesting that if I took pliers and tried to turn the post... it wouldn't? If so, it would be in violation of Newton's third law. There's no locking system in place is there? It's just a case of the tension exerted on the post not being enough to cause any tiny changes. Here though, there is change. Tiny tiny tiny change, but the lbs of tension to hz vibration ratio is so high that a small change makes a big difference.

ICBM said:
I may be wrong, but I've never come across anything like that...

So what this indicates is that you don't mean "that's not possible", you meant "I don't think that's possible". There's a reason people upgrade tuners though, and tuning stability is one of those reasons.

ICBM

missmisstreater said:

ICBM said:

That's not possible with any remotely decent machinehead that's strung properly and tuned up to the note. For the gear to actually slip like that, it's got to physically bend metal.

Well that's patently false isn't it? You turn the machinehead and the post turns. Are you suggesting that if I took pliers and tried to turn the post... it wouldn't?

No. It's patently true. If you took a pair of pliers and turned the post hard enough, you would bend the gear teeth. If you didn't turn that hard, it will not go out of tune.

I'll repeat: if the tuner is strung and tuned properly, then you cannot pull it out of tune without physically bending the metal.

If you think you can, please explain how the post can turn without the post being able to turn the key. The purpose of a worm gear is exactly to prevent that.

missmisstreater said:

There's a reason people upgrade tuners though, and tuning stability is one of those reasons.

Only if they believe you need them for that, which is wrong. The main reason is because higher quality machineheads have a smoother action, less backlash and a higher ratio, which makes them easier to tune smoothly and accurately with.

I'll repeat this again too: it's possible to make almost any set of machineheads, no matter how crude, stay in tune if you string and tune them properly. The only time you can't is if they are simply too worn or too poorly attached to the headstock, so either the post or the whole machinehead can move.

Good quality machineheads simply make tuning easier, and reduce the need to tune as far below the note before tuning up to it.

missmisstreater said:

So what this indicates is that you don't mean "that's not possible", you meant "I don't think that's possible".

What I mean is that I have thirty years of professional repair experience which indicates I'm right, but I can't absolutely guarantee it.

impmann

ICBM said:

missmisstreater said:

ICBM said:

That's not possible with any remotely decent machinehead that's strung properly and tuned up to the note. For the gear to actually slip like that, it's got to physically bend metal.

Well that's patently false isn't it? You turn the machinehead and the post turns. Are you suggesting that if I took pliers and tried to turn the post... it wouldn't?

No. It's patently true. If you took a pair of pliers and turned the post hard enough, you would bend the gear teeth. If you didn't turn that hard, it will not go out of tune.

I'll repeat: if the tuner is strung and tuned properly, then you cannot pull it out of tune without physically bending the metal.

If you think you can, please explain how the post can turn without the post being able to turn the key. The purpose of a worm gear is exactly to prevent that.

missmisstreater said:

There's a reason people upgrade tuners though, and tuning stability is one of those reasons.

Only if they believe you need them for that, which is wrong. The main reason is because higher quality machineheads have a smoother action, less backlash and a higher ratio, which makes them easier to tune smoothly and accurately with.

I'll repeat this again too: it's possible to make almost any set of machineheads, no matter how crude, stay in tune if you string and tune them properly. The only time you can't is if they are simply too worn or too poorly attached to the headstock, so either the post or the whole machinehead can move.

Good quality machineheads simply make tuning easier, and reduce the need to tune as far below the note before tuning up to it.

missmisstreater said:

So what this indicates is that you don't mean "that's not possible", you meant "I don't think that's possible".

What I mean is that I have thirty years of professional repair experience which indicates I'm right, but I can't absolutely guarantee it.

That's my experience in almost the same time of semi-pro and pro guitar tech experience, too.

Most people change machine heads for the wrong reasons. Locking machine heads undoubtably help keep in tune following  tremolo use, but only if strung correctly. Grovers/Schallers etc with their higher ratio give greater precision for tuning than open geared cheapies, but the way they work is effectively identical - and the physics behind how the string is stretched and retained by the capstan is the same. The upgrade is there in terms of feel and precision.

I'm not saying you can't have 'bad machine heads' but in most cases I've experienced, its usually down to bad nut cutting, poor string winding or bad strings. The criticism of the Baritone Blacktop Teles I've read has been to do with bad nut cutting and the string tree not having a spacer fitted, so the string pull over the nut is too great - and that leads to tuning issues.

I'd agree with you about the intonation issue on the guitar, but again some of that could be solved or at least eased by a better cut nut. Shifting the bridge isn't going to be easy or invisible - but shimming the neck might be a better option. By that I mean block up the screw holes, insert a small shim between the butt of the neck and the body (not under the neck), and redrill the neck bolts. This effectively shifts the neck away from the body by a pre-deterimined amount, meaning the bridge saddles can acheive intonation without excessive travel. I once had to rework a shipment of guitars from a major manufacturer in this way (2000 pieces) with a team of guys after the contract manufacturer who built the guitars goofed. The decision was taken to rework rather than scrap, because of the costs - and the resultant guitars were perfectly useable/strong after the rework. To date, I haven't heard a single complaint about the work done - and that was more than 10 years ago!

Good luck sorting that.

jonnygreentrees

I had the Blacktop Jazzmaster and that was a total dog

WezV

I had quite a few failed tuners when I was doing repairs for a rock school.  We are talking sub £60 guitars with tinfoil metal parts.  It was always worn gears, sometimes even falling apart.

if you think you have a failed tuner take the string off and turn the button 20 full turns.  If you find a turn or two where it grinds or needs extra force it's a worn or failed gear.  If not, it's fine and will work Just as well for baritone as a normal scale length


look at all the ERG's with stupid number of strings... almost all use standard tuners without issues.


the only thing you sometimes need different for baritone tuners is the hole size... Sperzels are not big enough as standard, but they do drill them larger on request

BloodEagle

If extra tension on tuning pegs doesn't cause tuning issues and they definitely can't unravel why do guitars with floyd roses etc have locking nuts? 

UnclePsychosis

BloodEagle said:

If extra tension on tuning pegs doesn't cause tuning issues and they definitely can't unravel why do guitars with floyd roses etc have locking nuts? 

---not all Floyd Rose guitars have locking nuts (I think Carvin do guitars without them). Also, more importantly, the locking nut is there to prevent problems with the string rubbing/sticking in the nut, not because of issues with the tuners. 

DaevidJ

Also,  the trem system on a Floyd Rose is designed for more adventurous bends... 

Octafish

BloodEagle said:

If extra tension on tuning pegs doesn't cause tuning issues and they definitely can't unravel why do guitars with floyd roses etc have locking nuts? 

What extra tension? You do realise that B tuned Baritone is effectively a standard tuned guitar with the top E removed and bottom B added. The top 5 string gauges are comparable with a set of 10-52 strings minus the top E. Sure the scale is a bit longer so a bit more tension, but there's probably just as much or more tension on a Strat with 11 or 12 gauge string sets tuned normally.

As Uncle Psychossis says locking nuts are actually there to eliminate tuning issues with strings sticking in the nut/string trees particularly when dive bombing.

BloodEagle

Octafish said:

BloodEagle said:

If extra tension on tuning pegs doesn't cause tuning issues and they definitely can't unravel why do guitars with floyd roses etc have locking nuts? 

What extra tension? You do realise that B tuned Baritone is effectively a standard tuned guitar with the top E removed and bottom B added. The top 5 string gauges are comparable with a set of 10-52 strings minus the top E. Sure the scale is a bit longer so a bit more tension, but there's probably just as much or more tension on a Strat with 11 or 12 gauge string sets tuned normally.

As Uncle Psychossis says locking nuts are actually there to eliminate tuning issues with strings sticking in the nut/string trees particularly when dive bombing.

I own 2 baritones, so yes, I know exactly what they are and how they're tuned. No more tension than a strat? Try bending a strat g string up 2 steps, then try the same on the 3rd string of a baritone - please let us know how you get on 

impmann

BloodEagle said:

If extra tension on tuning pegs doesn't cause tuning issues and they definitely can't unravel why do guitars with floyd roses etc have locking nuts? 

Locking machine heads and locking nuts follow a similar principal - when using a tremelo system repeated detuning will slacken the winds from the capstan. A locking nut removes all chance of this happening and a properly strung locking machine head post will have so little wind on the capstan that the effect of slackening from the post will be removed (or as near as dammit).

The locking nut also removes friction over the nut (see comments about sticking in the nut above) and came along before graphite nuts and the like were available.

Nobody said that the windings on a capstan can't come undone - they can with vigourous trem useage, (such as when fully detuned and back up), the wraps on the capstan can come back to rest in a slightly different place, causing tuning issues (hence my comment about locking machine heads needing to be properly strung).

The issue here is that the OP has said that the machine heads aren't gripping, letting the tuning slip. As @ICBM and I have said, this rarely is the case and bending the strings causing strings to detune is more often than not badly cut nuts or badly wrapped capstans.

Octafish

BloodEagle said:

Octafish said:

BloodEagle said:

If extra tension on tuning pegs doesn't cause tuning issues and they definitely can't unravel why do guitars with floyd roses etc have locking nuts? 

What extra tension? You do realise that B tuned Baritone is effectively a standard tuned guitar with the top E removed and bottom B added. The top 5 string gauges are comparable with a set of 10-52 strings minus the top E. Sure the scale is a bit longer so a bit more tension, but there's probably just as much or more tension on a Strat with 11 or 12 gauge string sets tuned normally.

As Uncle Psychossis says locking nuts are actually there to eliminate tuning issues with strings sticking in the nut/string trees particularly when dive bombing.

I own 2 baritones, so yes, I know exactly what they are and how they're tuned. N more tension than a strat? Try bending a strat g string up 2 steps, then try the same on the 3rd string on a baritone - please let us know how you get on

According to D'addario's string tension calculator the 20 gauge 3rd string on the Blacktop Baritone (tuned to D) has 14.4 Ibs of tension. The 3rd string on most standard 11 gauge is an 18 which in standard tuning at 25.5 inch scale pulls 18.58 Ibs of tension.

Presumably you have heavier strings, or longer scale or a wound third on your baritone?

UnclePsychosis

BloodEagle said:

Octafish said:

BloodEagle said:

If extra tension on tuning pegs doesn't cause tuning issues and they definitely can't unravel why do guitars with floyd roses etc have locking nuts? 

What extra tension? You do realise that B tuned Baritone is effectively a standard tuned guitar with the top E removed and bottom B added. The top 5 string gauges are comparable with a set of 10-52 strings minus the top E. Sure the scale is a bit longer so a bit more tension, but there's probably just as much or more tension on a Strat with 11 or 12 gauge string sets tuned normally.

As Uncle Psychossis says locking nuts are actually there to eliminate tuning issues with strings sticking in the nut/string trees particularly when dive bombing.

I own 2 baritones, so yes, I know exactly what they are and how they're tuned. No more tension than a strat? Try bending a strat g string up 2 steps, then try the same on the 3rd string of a baritone - please let us know how you get on

---string tension isn't the only factor in how hard it is to bend a string from one pitch to another. 

Tension is a very simple property of a string - its very simple to calculate. Unfortunately for guitarists, tension alone does not describe what a string feels like to play. When guitarists use the word "tension" they often mean "compliance" which is a much more complicated beast. The measurable, calculable Tension is only one part of the equation when it comes to things like string bends. 

On bass strings the low E is often lower tension than the G string is - but nobody would claim that the E string was easier to bend. See this tension chart if you don't believe me:

http://www.ghsrep.net/uploads/2/2/2/5/22258814/ghs_bass_string_guide.pdf

Jetfire

Ive watched the video and i wonder if theres any chance that the person you bought the tele from has set the pick up incorrectly rather than Fender?

My Blacktop is one of the strat types and its great. 

Panama_Jack666

mikeyrob73 said:

Have to admit i have been hankering after a Blacktop for a while now. whats the verdict @stimpsonslostson ;

@mikeyrob73 one popped up for sale on the Facebook selling groups this morning. £425 if I remember correctly...

mikeyrob73

I don't do Facebook @Panama_Jack666 and I am fully guitared up at the moment as well with an incoming Pelham blue firebird 

Panama_Jack666

mikeyrob73 said:

I don't do Facebook @Panama_Jack666 and I am fully guitared up at the moment as well with an incoming Pelham blue firebird 

Ooooh! Nice! Pictures when it's here please!

mikeyrob73

Picking it up on Saturday mate so pictures will follow 

there is a pic on here though @Panama_Jack666 ;http://www.thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/comment/1389050/#Comment_1389050

i actually wanted a Blacktop but this has come my way instead