Vintage Amps ~ pros & cons ?¿?

ChrisMusic

What are the pros and cons of running vintage amps?

either using live, or for home, or studio / session use ?

and I guess that question should include speakers too.

Anyone on here gigging / touring vintage amps ?

colourofsound

This is from logic, not experience - I've never owned a vintage amp but:

Pros
- Sounds good
- Easy to repair
- Reliable

Cons
- Valuable to take on gigs

The pros and cons of vintage amps are the same as handwired amps I'd imagine - just add wear and tear. Like with anything, you get what you pay for - newer, mass produced amps are more likely to have faults, are more difficult to repair - hand-made stuff will be easier to repair and chances are if it's a new unit from a new builder the customer service will be good and warranty will probably be very flexible.

Without want to sound like a dick but - it's just common sense, really.

ThePrettyDamned

colourofsound said:

This is from logic, not experience - I've never owned a vintage amp but:

Pros
- Sounds good
- Easy to repair
- Reliable

Cons
- Valuable to take on gigs

The pros and cons of vintage amps are the same as handwired amps I'd imagine - just add wear and tear. Like with anything, you get what you pay for - newer, mass produced amps are more likely to have faults, are more difficult to repair - hand-made stuff will be easier to repair and chances are if it's a new unit from a new builder the customer service will be good and warranty will probably be very flexible.

Without want to sound like a dick but - it's just common sense, really.

I wouldn't bet on that. Mass produced amps are consistent and, if well designed (and plenty are) they're extremely reliable. Lots of point to point amps gave dodgy wiring, poor lead dress and are hard(er) to repair if the layout isn't clear versus a quality pcb and well thought out layout. Even the Marshall dsl range, which is known to be unreliable, has sold many thousands and relatively few have needed repair. 

There is, however, no denying the "mojo". I played a silverface head in the local pmt and it had ripped tolex, stains, smelt funny... And was just so right. 

For vintage, pros: looks cool. Holds resale value. 

That's about it really. 

Cons: often need a service, many have had modifications made, some are in poor physical condition, they command a relatively high price. 

Mass production pros: generally reliable, have good warranty, mostly easy to work on (with exceptions - lots of stuff in this forum to guide you), can be very affordable to very expensive, often have very desirable features that vintage amps don't. More common second hand. 

Cons: not as cool, don't always come with a good speaker, some are poorly designed, some are difficult to repair. 

Hand made modern: pros - have good pcb if they use them, or turretboard or ptp if not, turrets and pcb are easier to repair, good components, sound good, can tailor spec to own needs. 

Cons: expensive, lose resale value fast. 

That's my own view. I wouldn't take a vintage over a modern hand made amp or even a factory produced one unless I knew it inside and out. 

richardhomer

I know someone who had a vintage AC30 - it was a great sounding thing - but had a fair few repairs over the years.

There are plenty of production and boutique amps which cover pretty much every vintage flavour, so I'm not convinced there is any need to own 'the real thing'.

jpfamps

My newest amp is from 1969.

I regularly gig with vintage amps.

All the amps I gig with have been recapped.

OK I can fix them, but the only issue I've ever had at a gig has been a blown valve.

Voxman

A lot of vintage amps, provided they are maintained properly, can often be more reliable than modern amps. Partly its because they have less 'extras' to go wrong (eg no FX loop, no reverb etc), partly because they are a simpler and typically hand-wired/loomed with no PCB's, but largely because they were often built like tanks and used over-engineered components eg bigger than needed power transformers etc.  Lower cost Chinese parts and speakers didn't really exist, and these amps were built to last and designed so that they could be relatively easily serviced & repaired.  The downside is that consistency of construction could sometimes vary depending on available parts and who built it. 

Modern manufacturing processes are more consistent, but budget and profits are the name of the game today (much more than in the 50's & 60's) and although you now often get a lot more extras, the components, materials & build quality generally reflects these budgetry constraints. 

However here's a thought.  Hundreds of times more amps are made today than in the 50's 60's and even 70's, because these are now made to suit all pockets and encompass SS, DSP, valve (with PCB), pure valve (true hand-wired), hybrids, etc.  And although we often bemoan quality today, its largely because we have faster & greater info than ever before - internet forums being an example. People are much more likely to post about problems rather than post they have had no problems (its human nature).  We might read about 10 people who have had problems with an amp line and assume its a rubbish bit of gear - but that might be insignificant if 1000 units were made and (say) at least 97% of customers are happy.  I wonder if the internet had been available in the 50s & 60s whether reliability and problems reported might actually have been worse!

There are other themes.  Old Fenders eg bandmasters, etc were typically used for clean country or jazz tones. They weren't (originally) pushed at full volume to get distortions. So those amps were likely to have had an easier life re strain on tubes/transformers/speakers etc.  Then you get folk like Hendrix, Clapton etc who drove their amps to the limit & their amp techs (or Jim Marshall) were frequently working on their rigs.  Yet if modern amps fail under similar usage we are often quick to say its because they weren't made as well!

So when considering reliability, there's arguments both ways but we're not necessarily seeing balanced, fair & meaningful comparative info. 

Re tone, a big reason old combos might sound better than their modern counterarts is that they have quality vintage speakers that have mellowed over many years of use.  Some of the speakers put in modern amps are frankly a disgrace - the Rocket 50 that came with my Cub 12R was a piece of garbage, and many of the budget speakers used by Vox, Marshall etc are just dreadful.  Of course the hand-wired build, over-engineered components, and even old valve in them (eg Mullards) are all part of their 'mojo'.  Thus, manufacturers now offer hand-wired vintage spec amps to try & capture the old tone/feel as closely as possible - and to be fair, most are reasonably successful.  But like some old Strats & LP's, there are a few unique sounding vintage amps that just have an indefinable 'something' that's very hard to capture completely. 

 

Ossyrocks

I have a 1965 Deluxe Reverb which was gone through with a fine toothed comb when I got it. Recapped etc. It has stood me well for over 20 years without issue. I'm now actually thinking it needs a recap again as they have been in there for so long.

I love vintage amps, they just need to be brought up to spec when you first get them and then you are all set.

Rob.

Misty

Good post @Voxman, several excellent points there. I have a '72 Deluxe Reverb, I bought it some years ago, and had it recapped and serviced at the time as it hadn't been used for possibly years. I replaced the speaker as the original sounds unbelievably bad, and it now has a Celestion G12H30. I don't generally gig with it as I have other amps I prefer for that, but I wouldn't hesitate to.

DJH83004

Wow, I think a book could quite easily be written on this topic, just by our contributors alone! Voxman & JPF sum things up well. From my own experience, I don't gig anymore, but my amps are all drip edge (68/69) SF Fenders and a Mesa F50 (and several more which we don't talk about ). In essence, if a vintage amp is serviced properly, filter caps replaced, the odd pot, jack socket or carbon comp resistor replaced they will be fine.
Things to remember, the transformers in vintage amps are generally bomb proof - which is in my experience is one of the biggest sources of failure (and expense) in modern valve amps and fundamentally they were designed to be serviced and repaired!
I realise there are common problems like old Fender eyelet board tracking issues, or Marshall bias caps or any Vox Hunts cap, or carbon comp resistors etc.but if you take your amp to someone who is familiar with these issues then it shouldn't be a problem. Not a plug BTW as I can't lift them anymore            

ToneControl

maintainable - really
survival of the fittest,  what can you do to a 60s amp that is worse than it has experienced?
usually survival of the best-sounding too

Cons:
value drop if you maintain it properly (solution  - buy a player, not a museum  piece)
price sometimes

Old Fender amps were built to travel in  pickups trucks
I'd be more wary of Marshalls from  what I have heard

ICBM

Late-60s to 80s Marshalls were generally very well made, although the one component which isn't - the voltage and impedance selectors - can have drastic consequences if they fail... blown transformers.

If you've got an old Marshall you care anything about and it still has these, get rid of them - you can simply hardwire them inside if you don't want to 'mod' the amp.

They're also more at risk than most Fenders because being mostly heads, are dependent on good speaker cables - which until the advent of Neutrik plugs were always a bit questionable - and musicians remembering to plug them in properly! Apart from that there's very little in it quality-wise.

Vintage amps can certainly be great when serviced properly, but I have to admit it puzzles me how much people are prepared to spend on ratty old amps which often need hundreds of pounds spending on them to be really reliable and in many cases don't actually sound that good.