Does a " Made in China" sticker bring a potential amp purchase to a screeching halt ?

Voxman

ThePrettyDamned said:

Telejester said:

Peavey consumers weren't exactly dancing in the streets when manufacturing was outsourced to China. I'd take a Peavey classic 50 made in the USA in a heartbeat, no interest in a Chinese one.

Fairly certain it's actually exactly the same inside. 

I have a handwired UK built amp and it's wonderful. I used to have a solid state amp that was made in the USA, and it was pretty great too. I also had a UK built Laney that was really great. 

And a Vox Valvetronix, made in China, digital modelling, NEVER went wrong and made me more money on music than all of the above combined.

Which Valvetronix did you have?

John_A

Maynehead said:

For amps, no problem. An amp is just a collection of (probably Chinese) parts bolted together anyway. There's no craftsmanship involved.

Guitars however I would definitely care a lot more. A couple of low frets or a misshapened neck can make all the difference between a great guitar and a terrible one.

There are Chinese craftsmen that have been making very high quality musical instruments for centuries and some excellent guitars like the Squire CVs and VMs that are built in China today.

do you think the bloke that operates the CNC machine in the USA is a better craftsman than his Chinese counterpart, no, he just gets paid 5 times more so your guitar is more expensive.

Teetonetal

Maynehead said:

For amps, no problem. An amp is just a collection of (probably Chinese) parts bolted together anyway. There's no craftsmanship involved.

Guitars however I would definitely care a lot more. A couple of low frets or a misshapened neck can make all the difference between a great guitar and a terrible one.

missing out. My best fender was made in Indonesia. Setup was perfect.

The worst one was a master built Tele.  Setup awful. Though to be fair that had a lot to do with musicstore.de sending it to their tech after sale...

Point is the the days of Asia in generally being inferior to the USA are long gone. Made in the west is no longer a guaranteed  mark of excellence.

Wazmeister

There might be a pattern emerging with Telejester maybe;

He did launch "the biggest pile of scrap" car and the "DESPISE" Tv  thread....

Sometimes, its easier just to moan...

StuartMac290

So, this went well!

gubble

Is this thread just a huge wind up?

There are going to be well made and poorly made of everything to come out of every country.

Modern Chinese manufacturing is by and large excellent.

Of the valves amps I've owned I've only ever had problems with ones made in the UK and USA. My Jet City, Fender (Mexican) and Chinese Vox's have all been faultless.

I'm going to put my neck out here and say with amps it's more down to the quality of the design rather than the location of the build that causes any issues

rlw

This is as daft as Made in Japan.   Remember in the 50s and 60s, that label made it cheap, tacky and nasty.  Apparently.
Then they took over the world of engineering with ships, motorcycles, cars, hi-fi, white goods and so on. 

Although China, as well as the UK and USA, makes some appalling shite, they are also manufacturing stuff of the highest quality.  If production methods are standardised and audited, and the same materials and components are specified, there is no reason for a Chinese product to be inferior, or better, than the same product made elsewhere.

It's cutting of your nose to spite your face really, although, if you have a strong conviction that globalisation is wrong and you want to make a personal stand about it, I can see some sense in what you say.

freakboy1610

A friend of mine has a Bugera V22 which sounds great and has never gone wrong. My Squier J Mascis Jazzmaster was made in China and I love it.

english_bob

digitalscream said:

So...because you saw one shitty amp made in China, you're assuming that they're all exactly the same?

That's a bit silly.

Take a look inside the chassis of a Jet City amp to educate yourself. The old ones are all designed by Mike Soldano and made to his specs; the newer ones are more designed in-house, but still made in the same factory and have the same build quality as the others. I've had a lot of Jet City amps over the last 6 or 7 years, and they've always been rock-solid...more to the point, I always get a "wow, I didn't expect it to be that well-made" comment from amp techs servicing them.

They're made in China.

 Exactly. From what I've heard on the Interwebs (granted, it's the Daily Mail of guitar knowledge), a lot of the Chinese manufacturers making gear with western brand names on it are prepared to make whatever you like, however you tell them to make it. If you give them a well-designed product and tell them to build it with good quality components, that's what they'll do. If you give them a shitty product and tell them to make it as cheaply as possible, they'll do that instead. 

Where Chinese manufacturers excel, so the reports go, is that they build what they're contracted to build with a level of consistency that can't be matched elsewhere- what rolls off the production line won't have any faults that weren't in the design you gave them. It'll be made exactly as they were told to make it. 

So yeah, I'd buy a Chinese amplifier. Most of the other electronic stuff in my house is probably from China.

Maynehead

John_A said:

Maynehead said:

For amps, no problem. An amp is just a collection of (probably Chinese) parts bolted together anyway. There's no craftsmanship involved.

Guitars however I would definitely care a lot more. A couple of low frets or a misshapened neck can make all the difference between a great guitar and a terrible one.

There are Chinese craftsmen that have been making very high quality musical instruments for centuries and some excellent guitars like the Squire CVs and VMs that are built in China today.

do you think the bloke that operates the CNC machine in the USA is a better craftsman than his Chinese counterpart, no, he just gets paid 5 times more so your guitar is more expensive.

I'm only speaking from experience.

A lot of guitars have passed through my hands and the Chinese ones are the ones that tend to have bad fretwork and necks that are out of shape.

I'm guessing it's because Chinese factories have traditionally focused more on high quantity, low cost, not because they are incapable of producing high quality stuff, but more because that is their market sector and selling point. 

rlw

Maynehead said:

John_A said:

Maynehead said:

For amps, no problem. An amp is just a collection of (probably Chinese) parts bolted together anyway. There's no craftsmanship involved.

Guitars however I would definitely care a lot more. A couple of low frets or a misshapened neck can make all the difference between a great guitar and a terrible one.

There are Chinese craftsmen that have been making very high quality musical instruments for centuries and some excellent guitars like the Squire CVs and VMs that are built in China today.

do you think the bloke that operates the CNC machine in the USA is a better craftsman than his Chinese counterpart, no, he just gets paid 5 times more so your guitar is more expensive.

I'm only speaking from experience.

A lot of guitars have passed through my hands and the Chinese ones are the ones that tend to have bad fretwork and necks that are out of shape.

I'm guessing it's because Chinese factories have traditionally focused more on high quantity, low cost, not because they are incapable of producing high quality stuff, but more because that is their market sector and selling point. 

That could be a fault in the contract whereby an instrument has to be made at a certain cost to a certain standard.  If the manufacturer meets the standard set by the company, and you have to assume that they do, then you can only blame the company who gave him the contact and set the standard.

Maynehead

rlw said:

Maynehead said:

John_A said:

Maynehead said:

For amps, no problem. An amp is just a collection of (probably Chinese) parts bolted together anyway. There's no craftsmanship involved.

Guitars however I would definitely care a lot more. A couple of low frets or a misshapened neck can make all the difference between a great guitar and a terrible one.

There are Chinese craftsmen that have been making very high quality musical instruments for centuries and some excellent guitars like the Squire CVs and VMs that are built in China today.

do you think the bloke that operates the CNC machine in the USA is a better craftsman than his Chinese counterpart, no, he just gets paid 5 times more so your guitar is more expensive.

I'm only speaking from experience.

A lot of guitars have passed through my hands and the Chinese ones are the ones that tend to have bad fretwork and necks that are out of shape.

I'm guessing it's because Chinese factories have traditionally focused more on high quantity, low cost, not because they are incapable of producing high quality stuff, but more because that is their market sector and selling point. 

That could be a fault in the contract whereby an instrument has to be made at a certain cost to a certain standard.  If the manufacturer meets the standard set by the company, and you have to assume that they do, then you can only blame the company who gave him the contact and set the standard.

Not blaming anyone, just saying that a "Crafted in China" label on a guitar always gives me a tinge of apprehension, whereas for amps I don't even care.

Modulus_Amps

@spark240 said:

At the guitar show one of the guys stated that the best Valves at the moment are made in China ?

After they have been through a western quality control system, that scraps allot of them for noise, but yes some of the Chinese valves are now good, some are crap

Any Western company that gets amps made in China is doing so to meet a price point, simply, they can make them cheaper because labour is cheaper and they have invested millions in becoming a manufacturing power house, the outgoing quality is dependent on the western companies specification not the fact that it is made in China.

Saying all that I think allot of amps are made to be disposable these days, using surface mount fiddly components etc

Modulus_Amps

@Maynehead said:

For amps, no problem. An amp is just a collection of (probably Chinese) parts bolted together anyway. There's no craftsmanship involved.

I have been training a guy to build amps for the last year, to say there is no craftmanship involved in a "well built" amp and its just parts bolted together is a bit ignorant of the process.

It is true that PCB amps are plugged together, But the craft side is done at the design and prototyping phase to make production easier and more consistent. even those amps can often be improved by someone who knows what they are doing, and you just need to follow some of the amp repair groups on facebook to see the lack of craftsmanship on allot of those amps.

anyway I obviously disagree with your statement...

HAL9000

Both my Orange CR60C and my Roland Cube 40XL were made in China. Both seem pretty sturdy. The Orange, in particular, appears to use decent quality components and has been very well put together. As others have already said, the days of Chinese stuff being cheap and nasty are long past.

Maynehead

Modulus_Amps said:

@Maynehead said:

For amps, no problem. An amp is just a collection of (probably Chinese) parts bolted together anyway. There's no craftsmanship involved.

I have been training a guy to build amps for the last year, to say there is no craftmanship involved in a "well built" amp and its just parts bolted together is a bit ignorant of the process.

It is true that PCB amps are plugged together, But the craft side is done at the design and prototyping phase to make production easier and more consistent. even those amps can often be improved by someone who knows what they are doing, and you just need to follow some of the amp repair groups on facebook to see the lack of craftsmanship on allot of those amps.

anyway I obviously disagree with your statement...

I agree with you completely, there is a lot of skill and knowledge involved in good amp design. My post was just worded terribly.

My actual point was that putting an amp together on a Chinese factory production line requires very little artistic license from the workers. As long as they know how to solder, and how to screw the right parts together, you will end up with an amp that is just as good as one that came off a production line in Germany, provided that the same quality parts are used.

For guitars however, there is a lot more hand crafting involved in the final fit and finish, and the quality of the end product is very much dependent on the finer details, which are often overlooked when a guitar is rushed through a high volume production line. Things like fret work, neck angle, neck relief, nut height, nut slots etc are all critical to how a guitar plays, and Chinese guitars tend to lack the required amount of attention in these areas.

Jez6345789

Seems almost a mute point these days, stuff is made all over and pick and place component lines are the same the world over same as CnC. 

If you go to China looking for Super cheap and you put no quality control in place with a wonky design the chinese wont fix or improve it they will build what you tell them warts and all. If you do it properly you wont get the cheapest product in the world but you will get quality at a better price

Ultimately the bad rap came from the early days of western companies diving into China to add zero's to the bottom line now its a lot more sophisticated and many companies are invested in Chinese production and have quality control in place. 

I would find what I like and throw the dice you can get a badly wired boutique amp or badly soldered Chinese amp just go for what you like the sound of.

jonnyburgo

Made in China doesn't mean bad

Example 1 VHT Special 6, Chinese and cheap as chips.

John_A

Nationality has nothing to do with it. There are craftsmen everywhere, probably more in China simply because of the population. Obviously a guitar that comes out of a Chinese factory and sells for £100 isn't going to be amazing but I have no doubt they could knock out a custom shop quality guitar for half the cost of a USA one and it would be as good or better

shaunm

@John_A I agree totally. 

I dont care where where something is made and that's including guitars. If it's good it's good. 

I like to buy British when I can because it helps smaller builders but when I am working in a tighter budget I only care about getting the best I can for the money I have.