Mixing speakers in a 2x12 ?

Fusionista

This is a continuation of an old thread on MR which eventually had me putting a V30 with a CL80, which didn't work - for me. Somehow the CL80 sounded 'loose'. Might be OK for AC/DC stuff but I need something tighter and smoother, but still with plenty of complexity. 

So after an eon or so, I have picked up a Gold and thinking to try that instead.

It is an interesting mix because both are in some way an attempt by Celestion to produce a higher-power Blue.  In theory the Gold should complement the mid-range strengths of the V30, but  wondering whether efficiency will be an issue and the 50w Gold will overpower the 60w V30.  

digitalscream

Dunno...I use a G12T-75 to offset the shoutiness of the V30 in the other side, and it works really rather well. @ICBM recommends the G12H, as I recall.

I could well be getting one of the new V-types with my Thomann vouchers, but I haven't decided whether it's going in with the V30 or on its own in a 1x12" yet.

ToneControl

when you combine 2 diff drivers you can get very random results, since the impedance, reactance at different frequencies varies so much, each driver can take more than its share of certain frequencies, and dominate the mixture at that point. Easiest to stick to known happy combinations, e.g. the ones Matchless use

Fusionista

There is a whole ceramic vs alnico argument going as well as closed-back vs open back.  

This cab is closed as it happens - it's the one in my sig.

If this doesn't work I'll have the G12H30 out of my Matamp 1x12 and put the V30 back in there. If it's good enough for Cornford...

ToneControl

btw a Gold is such a special tool, I'd keep it separate for blackface and voxy amps

Have you tried the Watford valves speaker test site?

ThePrettyDamned

Just experiment. You'll know if it sounds nasty or not

ecc83

I have heard a Gold plus V30 two by, It was a 1/3rd open back cab and we rigged it to A/B the speakers.

Not a staggering difference IIRC but I do recall the Gold had a bit more bottom, which I would not have predicted?

If you don't need the full power handling I would wire each speaker to a separate jack and fit a shorting switch.

Dave.

ICBM

Fusionista said:

It is an interesting mix because both are in some way an attempt by Celestion to produce a higher-power Blue.

Not that again…

The V30 was never an attempt to make a high-powered Blue, it was an attempt to make a high-powered G12H-30. That's why it's called a "Vintage 30" - as in a "vintage" "30" (ie old G12H-30).

Why Celestion ever said anything about the Blue, I have no idea. It's not made like a Blue, it doesn't sound like a Blue, and it's not called a 15 like the power rating of a Blue! The Blue was not even fashionable then, the desirable 'rock' speaker was the G12H-30, as used by Hendrix etc.

I actually remember the advertising for the V30 when it first came out and it clearly said G12H-30, too - based on using a laser interferometer on the cone movement of one, no less. The fact that it was such a failure at that (even though it made a great speaker in its own right) is perhaps why they're tried to remove all reference to it…

They also claim the Gold sounds like a high-powered Blue, and it doesn't. It actually sounds like a cross between a V30 and a Blue to me, or like an 'Alnico V30'. The two are actually a very good combination, I had them in one of my Trem-o-verbs for a while. Very good, although in the end I preferred the original 2-V30 setup.

Fusionista

ICBM said:

Fusionista said:

It is an interesting mix because both are in some way an attempt by Celestion to produce a higher-power Blue.

Not that again…

The V30 was never an attempt to make a high-powered Blue, it was an attempt to make a high-powered G12H-30. That's why it's called a "Vintage 30" - as in a "vintage" "30" (ie old G12H-30).

Ok, I should have said 'allegedly'. 

Bloody fora, full of duff info...

ICBM

I know, but it is a puzzle as to why this one has become so much 'gospel'. There are even people who try to justify the name on the grounds that the speaker is '30 centimetre' diameter, to avoid any reference to the H30. Not that Celestion or anyone else have ever called them anything other than 12"...

Fusionista

ToneControl said:

btw a Gold is such a special tool, I'd keep it separate for blackface and voxy amps

Have you tried the Watford valves speaker test site?

If you mean their test reports, yes - but no Gold there.

I did a BIG shootout years ago at the Matamp factory, under the supervision of Van Hayden (top tonemeister) and IIRC the Gold sounded quite boxy (although not as boxy as the Hot 100).  On that occasion I had no hesitation in specifying 2xG12H30's.

Cirrus

I have learned something about comparing speakers side by side.

It's mostly a waste of time.

You will always have a favourite, based on the riffs you feel like playing that day and the random tonal attributes your mind decides are good or bad.

The only worthwhile way (for me, anyway!) to judge speakers is to take them to band practices and gigs for a few months, and see how often you're driving home with a smile or a frown.

That said, must have been bloody cool to visit the Matamp factory and play through some speakers!

Back to the OP, personally I've gone off mixing speakers - I feel that multiples of the same speaker type gives you the character of that model and you can set the rest of your rig to play to its strengths. When you start mixing speakers the result gets unpredictable and the resulting sound gets less character, plus you might find that what's just right for one speaker leaves its cab-mate dull and flubby. Not a great analogy, but it's like mixing different paints and just ending up with brown.

That said, a V30 and a gold in a 2x12 is a setup I gigged with for a couple of months last year and it was one of the more successful blends I tried - definitely worked better at high volume though! Personally, I'd go two V30s and if you need more bass, crank up the bass!

As for the Blue/ Gold/ V30 thing, to my ears the only similarity is that they all have relatively recessed highs and a tasty midrange push. The Blue and V30 both have "creamy" high end when hit hard, the V30 is much tighter though. Blue vs Gold, the Gold is punchier, has more bottom end, more zing in the upper mids and a bit more complexity in the treble while still being mellow up top above the upper mid peak. That's broken in though - new the gold is the brightest, harshest thing I've heard.

ecc83

Coming back to me now!

We then A/B'ed the Gold+V30 against a stock 2xV30 cab and again, not a startling difference, but of course this was a VERY limited trial both in terms of duration and genres. As for "picking' yer riff"? DON'T let the player do the switching!

Also, I seem to recall that the cab came in to have a panel fitted to make it a closed cab and so it was just an excuse for a bit of play!

I can't even remember the amp we used? Probably a cathode biased EL84 30 watter but I mention no names!

Dave.

ToneControl

http://www.watfordvalves.com/soundfactory.asp

The gold is on the celestion page, top left, next to the blue.

btw anyone have any opinions about the Fane AXA 12?

A 100w supposedly a bit like blue/gold. I bought one a few years back, it was good but I preferred the Gold for my John-Mayer type Dumble clone.

I find the v30 doesn't work for many amps for me. OK with Marshally-type ones certainly, but I didn't like with Fendery and voxy amps, except the Fender Tonemaster - stunning, but it was voiced for v30s specifically

Fusionista

Cirrus said:

I have learned something about comparing speakers side by side.

It's mostly a waste of time.

After due pondering, think I agree.  Just bought another Gold and going to put them in as a pair.

Might be in the market for an unloaded 2x12 also...

Fusionista

ToneControl said:

http://www.watfordvalves.com/soundfactory.asp

The gold is on the celestion page, top left, next to the blue.

Thanks for that - however I could not hear any difference! 

Cirrus

Fusionista said:

ToneControl said:

http://www.watfordvalves.com/soundfactory.asp

The gold is on the celestion page, top left, next to the blue.

Thanks for that - however I could not hear any difference! 

Proof if proof was needed that comparing speakers side by side is a fickle affair!  B-)

Play the right stuff and the difference is very apparent.

Fusionista

Last night I was lent a Wolfe Tone 2x12 with V30s.  Nice cab.  I was using a EMG-equipped Strat through an MJW Orion 2 (the one in my sig) and I don't know quite what was the problem (suspect a combination of things inc the EMGs, a small rehearsal room and a guest keys player) but a middy/edgy mess with no character which got lost in the mix.

Fusionista

Well I was just about to install the 2 Golds (in the closed back 2x12) when my mate said to me "You haven't  got an amp louder than 40-50 watts - which you almost never use balls out - and you are going to put 2 50w-rated speakers together ? You'll never get any tone out of 'em."

Notwithstanding @ecc83 's suggestion above which I am still considering, he may have a point as I have been using my 2x12 G12Ms for pub-sized gigs and even my band notice - and like - the tone I am getting from them https://www.facebook.com/pages/5Aside-Band/603362123087697

I have also come to the conclusion that the V30 is best used for a hard rock sound, although I am interested in other opinions.

Finally, I am looking for a Weber Blue Dog and and Weber Silver Bell to try.

Cirrus

You don't need to drive speakers hard to get a good sound. I had two golds in my AC30, and they sounded excellent even at low volume. I have two blues now and while I do prefer them for what they do best, the golds were more versatile, deeper, punchier and more dynamic... and in my opinion sounded better lower volume than the blues, which feel anaemic until they're pushed hard enough to thicken out.

That said, I really didn't like my golds in a closed back cab. They seemed to become very mushy and lost all their midrange and treble character.

It's speaker-dependent, but I think you only need to push a few watts into speakers to get them sounding good once they're broken in. Anything more than that and you start getting towards thermal compression, cone breakup and squash. Is that good or bad? It just depends.

One of the sounds I keep returning to is AC30 -> 2x12 with Vintage 30s. I think they sound brilliant, even alongside the 2x12 with Blues which I also love. I gigged a 30w alnico Weber Blue Dog/ Silver bell combo for about a year and found it an incredible recording solution but frustrating live - low sensitivity and a propensity to sound flat if underpowered and flubby if overpowered gave them a very definite sweet spot that wasn't always practical in different venues.

Fusionista

Interesting re Webers - not too keen on 'sweet spots' as we have a big loud/soft thing going in our band.  

Bought another 2x12 cab (!) fitted with Hot 100's, and for my purposes they are a) a tad  bassy and b) only shine when driven hard, so I'm looking to replace them.  If not the Webers anyone got a killer speaker set or combination to recommend  ?

I play various guitars (but mainly strats and slide tele) in a classic covers band.