Band honeymoon period over - advice please

stickyfiddle

Leave band. Take songs. Poach drummer. Sorted! 

Teetonetal

Depends what the aim of the band is I suppose.

I just rejoined a band that I left 6 months ago for sort of similar reasons - singer is not great (but not awful) and the drummer can't remember intros or endings...

But I really missed it. At 38 I now have no grand designs of making any money from original music and I just enjoyed playing with them more than I thought. We do a few gigs a year, a bit of recording and regular practice. The only thing that will change upon me rejoining is that I am going to sing more and I bought some monitors (which have made a difference, the singer is no longer straining as much so to be heard voice holds up better).

If I was looking to make more of an impact / name I would be finding a much better singer.

Cirrus

Agree with the other posters. Leave the band.

Make a new band. With Blackjack. And Hookers. In fact, forget the Blackjack.

@gusman2x has it right - if you kick the others out, you've created a problem in the future and you've made it about their failings. No one likes rejection. If you leave, it's about you. And if you happen to start a new project and your drummer jumps on board... it is what it is. If your drummer is actually good and serious about being in a good band, I'm sure he'll jump at the opportunity. And having a good drummer is a massive hurdle you've already overcome, so other good musicians/ singers will be easier to bring on.

english_bob

rico said:

3. The drummer and I were in denial but the singer is just awful. So much so that if I play some recordings to mates or family they can't believe it - after that I was embarrassed to play them any more of our songs. I guess we tried to give him the benefit of the doubt (no monitoring, having to sing and play bass at the same time, having to wear earplugs...I'm clutching at straws here) but no. The lyrical topics are good though. 

Either you have two bass players or you only have one problem.

If the inability to sing in tune and the refusal to play bass like a bass player are combined in one person, it's a no-brainer. Bye bye. How you spin it is up to you- you could tell them you don't think it's working out for you and leave, taking your songs (and making sure the band members you want to keep know what's up), or you could tell the guy a few home truths. 


If you feel like guitarist #2 has potential, a frank discussion might change things.
It's a tough thing to do with the right balance of diplomacy and challenge, but you need to do it to get to the root of what's up with this guy.
Is he just shy?
Does he feel out of his depth with the material?
Does he know what you expect from him?
Is he just not feeling it?
Would he be happier spending more time on specific passages that he can't get his part right for?
Do you need to give him some homework to learn a particular song for next time? If you've got a lot of songs and have presented them to the band all at once he might be overwhelmed with learning them all.
It might be a combination of several of the above. If you can't be bothered being Dr. Phil to this guy, I don't think it's unreasonable just to leave him out of the truth behind the "not working out" ruse.  

p90fool

guitarfishbay said:

If you've got songs written, and a good drummer, then that's a big head start for attracting a singer. I'd put your energy into finding a singer... my experience of bassists is many of them are the 'want to join a complete band' type. When you've got a good singer that'll make it a lot easier to get the bassist (or any other musician for that matter), getting good musicians to join without a singer is a much tougher ask

Exactly this. If you find a decent singer the other musicians you need will turn up pretty quickly. If you don't have a singer you don't have a band, you just have some guys jamming in a garage.

None of the good musicians I know will even bother auditioning for a band if the singer is not in place.

rico

Again thanks for the comments guys. The drummer and I are definitely on the same page and tbh he was the one that came out with the fact the fun is declining - I just didn't want to admit it.

I should have made it clear earlier - the singer is also the bassist. 

To clarify, the aim of the band is to play original heavy rock with like-minded committed and proficient musicians and ultimately play gigs and record stuff. Along with the drummer, all we need is a good singer & bassist (bonus if they are one and the same).

Another thing is that whilst I have written all the music, the lyrics are the existing singers' but I would have no problem scrapping them and inviting the new singer to write new lyrics. 

@english_bob interesting questions. I think it''s fair to say most guitar players have potential but in this case it's the general practice etiquette and style that is the sticking point. It was worse, it got better and now it's worse again. I generally write songs as and when the inspiration strikes and use garageband to record ideas then develop them into songs and send the ideas to the rest of the band via dropbox which seems like a good way to get ideas across. 

As it stands, there is a natural break in rehearsals (i'm away on holiday so i'll miss two practices and the drummer won't practice if i'm not there, and the other guitarist will be away for the practice after that) so things may start to slow down as a result of this. I think the drummer and I will now start to recruit for a singer & bassist and say to the other guys that it's been fun and thanks but it's not for us. Good idea?

english_bob

rico said:

@english_bob interesting questions. I think it''s fair to say most guitar players have potential but in this case it's the general practice etiquette and style that is the sticking point. It was worse, it got better and now it's worse again.

I think the onus is always on individual musicians to make it work in terms of rehearsals and writing/learning parts. If you'd prefer for rehearsals to go a particular way, ask. If you want to work on a particular song, say. If you're having a hard time coming up with a part with a particular bit and you'd like for the rest of the band to make suggestions, invite them. If you have an idea of how to improve one of the songs, suggest it. If you really aren't feeling one of the songs, politely tell the band.

Likewise, if you can't nail a part while you're rehearsing and you don't need the rest of the band's input to do it, then you move on, go home and work on it, and come back next week with it sorted. 

Of course, it's also the responsibility of the whole band to make rehearsals conducive to that sort of working. If you're going to get all pissy whenever anyone suggests that you change something and ignore anything they say, or if you're going to disconnect from those discussions and sit in a corner, you're not helping.

If you're the nurturing, mentoring type, and you want to help a musician who doesn't understand this yet to, you know, grow as a person and as a musician and shit, then by all means do. If you'd rather just have a band of competent musicians with enough about them to ask for what they want from rehearsals without having to teach them all this stuff, I don't think that's unreasonable at all.

The point is that you're all there to make the music better, however that needs to happen. That's why your bass player's attitude really boils my piss. You play what makes the song better, and if that's boring, you shut the fuck up and do it anyway. If you want to do something that's always stimulating and pleasurable to you with no consideration for anyone else then go home and have a wank.

rico

english_bob said:

rico said:

@english_bob interesting questions. I think it''s fair to say most guitar players have potential but in this case it's the general practice etiquette and style that is the sticking point. It was worse, it got better and now it's worse again.

I think the onus is always on individual musicians to make it work in terms of rehearsals and writing/learning parts. If you'd prefer for rehearsals to go a particular way, ask. If you want to work on a particular song, say. If you're having a hard time coming up with a part with a particular bit and you'd like for the rest of the band to make suggestions, invite them. If you have an idea of how to improve one of the songs, suggest it. If you really aren't feeling one of the songs, politely tell the band.

I'm usually quite patient, especially with people that I don't know well enough to not be so I have always been polite in suggesting what songs we should focus on, my suggestions as to what would work well for certain parts and when I do ask for input it's met with blank faces. I definitely see myself as the leader in the current set up - god knows how they used to function.

Likewise, if you can't nail a part while you're rehearsing and you don't need the rest of the band's input to do it, then you move on, go home and work on it, and come back next week with it sorted. 

This isn't a problem for me, particularly as I write all the damn songs. The other guitarist and bassist often forget intros or arrangements and it drives me nuts. 

Of course, it's also the responsibility of the whole band to make rehearsals conducive to that sort of working. If you're going to get all pissy whenever anyone suggests that you change something and ignore anything they say, or if you're going to disconnect from those discussions and sit in a corner, you're not helping.

I always try and invite discussion and constructive criticism because I would rather know sooner if they don't like a particular idea or song. Again, often it's met with blank faces or mumbles.

If you're the nurturing, mentoring type, and you want to help a musician who doesn't understand this yet to, you know, grow as a person and as a musician and shit, then by all means do. If you'd rather just have a band of competent musicians with enough about them to ask for what they want from rehearsals without having to teach them all this stuff, I don't think that's unreasonable at all.

I consider myself as the former (to a certain extent) however I would far prefer the latter. The competence isn't the be-all and end all really. I would rather have a less proficient bassist who listens, learns, gives input and is committed rather than some ego stroking slap-fusion-wanker. 

The point is that you're all there to make the music better, however that needs to happen. That's why your bass player's attitude really boils my piss. You play what makes the song better, and if that's boring, you shut the fuck up and do it anyway. If you want to do something that's always stimulating and pleasurable to you with no consideration for anyone else then go home and have a wank.

Spot on. 

See my comments in bold italics.

PolarityMan

If it was just one problem then you might have considered developing the player who has it (although overplaying is unlikely to be something you can coach out of someone). The drumemr is the hardest to find replacement so grab him and run. (as everyone else has said).

Rocker

You and the drummer can form a SECOND band and play your music better.  All the time your present band continues on its merry way.  As you like the guys in your present band, it would be hard to break up a band even if it is in need of a serious and non confrontational chat between all its members.  There is nothing to stop you and the drummer doing what you want to do yet not losing the friendship of your band mates. 

Veganic

The singer can't sing and insists on over-playing the bass?  

Is he named Geddy by any chance?

(Get a baritone/extended range and change your style to suit the band.)

rico

Rocker said:

You and the drummer can form a SECOND band and play your music better.  All the time your present band continues on its merry way.  As you like the guys in your present band, it would be hard to break up a band even if it is in need of a serious and non confrontational chat between all its members.  There is nothing to stop you and the drummer doing what you want to do yet not losing the friendship of your band mates. 

I think this is a wise idea in the interim. 

Now then, any bassists or singers in London?!

english_bob

Rocker said:

You and the drummer can form a SECOND band and play your music better.  All the time your present band continues on its merry way.  

Yep, while you spend twice as much money on rehearsal rooms, commit twice as much time to bands (wives and girlfriends love that shit) and have to listen to your first band ruining the music you make sound amazing with your other band, all because you came up with an elaborate plan to avoid upsetting anyone, like you were in some sort of '70s sitcom about a rock band or something.

I get that nobody likes confrontation, but I can't understand the lengths some people will go to to avoid it. All this will do is punt the problem further down the road, only then when you have "the chat" with Geddy and Skronk (for those shall be their names) you will have been stringing them along for weeks/months/years while you played the same songs in another band that you didn't tell them about. How do you suppose that's going to go? 

If you've made up your mind that the current band isn't going to work out, it would be better for all concerned if you kill it now IMO, rather than "staying together for the kids".

Modulus_Amps

Start a new band with the focus the two of you want, put all new members on a 3 month probation to make sure you can dump them if they actually suck eggs.

Having a band of mates for fun is not the same as trying to have a music career and be successful, you need like minded goal orientated band members, who will each work on there craft outside of the band setting.

and the most important part is get someone that can actually sing, hate seeing great musicians play with crappy singers, if the singer doesn't wow you he wont wow the audience either.....

richardhomer

Veganic said:

The singer can't sing and insists on over-playing the bass?  

Is he named Geddy by any chance?

I was thinking Peter Hook....

SRich

Rocker said:

You and the drummer can form a SECOND band and play your music better 

Forge the re-birth of the 'Power-Trio'.........great simplicity and you get a chance to rock out without too many distractions or influences. 

Teetonetal

Rocker said:

You and the drummer can form a SECOND band and play your music better.  All the time your present band continues on its merry way.  As you like the guys in your present band, it would be hard to break up a band even if it is in need of a serious and non confrontational chat between all its members.  There is nothing to stop you and the drummer doing what you want to do yet not losing the friendship of your band mates. 

Are you being serious?

Bod

rico said:

He will not play a standard bass part and prefers to play 'riffs' at the upper frets of his six-string bass. 

The bassist of one of my old bands once turned up to practice with a new 12-string bass.  It sounded bloody awful, almost like a really, really crap piano.  You couldn't hear anything else because the hideous thing completely stomped over everybody else's frequencies.  She was incredibly proud of it however, and continued to use it, so I jumped ship shortly afterwards.

rico

Bod said:

rico said:

He will not play a standard bass part and prefers to play 'riffs' at the upper frets of his six-string bass. 

The bassist of one of my old bands once turned up to practice with a new 12-string bass.  It sounded bloody awful, almost like a really, really crap piano.  You couldn't hear anything else because the hideous thing completely stomped over everybody else's frequencies.  She was incredibly proud of it however, and continued to use it, so I jumped ship shortly afterwards.

Don't get me started on the fuzz...

Re playing in two bands concurrently, I think that is not actually sustainable so as soon as we have new personnel it's over. 

Rocker

Teetonetal said:

Rocker said:

You and the drummer can form a SECOND band and play your music better.  All the time your present band continues on its merry way.  As you like the guys in your present band, it would be hard to break up a band even if it is in need of a serious and non confrontational chat between all its members.  There is nothing to stop you and the drummer doing what you want to do yet not losing the friendship of your band mates. 

Are you being serious?

Of course.  What is to stop you or anyone from playing in more than one band?