'Replica's , copies , fakes and friends

Bridgehouse

Garthy said:

Gagaryn said:

Skipped said:

stimpsonslostson said:

I'm sure I read somewhere that if you buy a "replica/fake/whatever you want to call it" off ebay. Then once it's arrived you report it to ebay as a fake (with sufficient evidence) even if it was advertised as such ebay will give you a refund and instruct you to destroy the item... how they verify the destruction I don't know.

I think it works like this.
You buy a Replica on ebay. You then contact ebay and say "I have bought a counterfeit Les Paul made by (name of builder) but I suspect it was made by BobBurst".
Ebay then say "We don't care who made it. It now has to be destroyed"
You then destroy the guitar, and provide evidence....or you send it to the Copywrite owner (Gibson) who destroy the guitar and confirm to ebay. Ebay pay for Gibson to destroy the guitar.
Ebay then refund your £7000.

Does anybody disagree?  

My mate bought a "Fender Custom Shop" Precision Bass a few years back on eBay. When it arrived it was a POS - cheap Chinese body, mini pots, $5 pup but a surprisingly nice neck. We got in touch with the seller in case it he was genuinely in the dark about it, even phoning him but he didn't want to know - the offer was to return at his expense after a full refund was made but he still claimed it was genuine and now not his problem.

Long story short - got in touch with eBay explaining it was a fake, they asked for written proof on headed paper from an "expert" that the guitar was fake - so I wrote a letter on "Gagaryn Guitars" or similar headed paper confirming its fakeness including a picture of the guitar dismantled as proof of its "destruction" and he was promptly refunded.

The owner then got back in touch asking for it back - but it was explained to him that that ship had passed and the guitar was now in pieces.

(PS -The guitar may now be back in one piece, (albeit with a new loom and pup) in my living room, with "Chinese Fake!!" scratched into the pickup cavity and control cavity - I still really like the neck on it!)

Just so I haven't got the wrong end of the stick, you took it apart, wrote a letter of proof from your own 'company' then got your money back, then reassembled it and kept it?

I did wonder if this was in the right thread

Teetonetal

impmann said:

Frankly, the only folks I've ever really encountered who get so worked up about Chibsons/Fake Fenders etc is you lot. Seriously...

I think some of you need to calm down a bit, as there are worse crimes in this world!

Yes there are. But actually fraud is a pretty mean crime too. Just because it's a guitar doesn't trivialise it.

We, as a guitar playing community, are exactly the ones who should care. 

Teetonetal

Garthy said:

Gagaryn said:

Skipped said:

stimpsonslostson said:

I'm sure I read somewhere that if you buy a "replica/fake/whatever you want to call it" off ebay. Then once it's arrived you report it to ebay as a fake (with sufficient evidence) even if it was advertised as such ebay will give you a refund and instruct you to destroy the item... how they verify the destruction I don't know.

I think it works like this.
You buy a Replica on ebay. You then contact ebay and say "I have bought a counterfeit Les Paul made by (name of builder) but I suspect it was made by BobBurst".
Ebay then say "We don't care who made it. It now has to be destroyed"
You then destroy the guitar, and provide evidence....or you send it to the Copywrite owner (Gibson) who destroy the guitar and confirm to ebay. Ebay pay for Gibson to destroy the guitar.
Ebay then refund your £7000.

Does anybody disagree?  

My mate bought a "Fender Custom Shop" Precision Bass a few years back on eBay. When it arrived it was a POS - cheap Chinese body, mini pots, $5 pup but a surprisingly nice neck. We got in touch with the seller in case it he was genuinely in the dark about it, even phoning him but he didn't want to know - the offer was to return at his expense after a full refund was made but he still claimed it was genuine and now not his problem.

Long story short - got in touch with eBay explaining it was a fake, they asked for written proof on headed paper from an "expert" that the guitar was fake - so I wrote a letter on "Gagaryn Guitars" or similar headed paper confirming its fakeness including a picture of the guitar dismantled as proof of its "destruction" and he was promptly refunded.

The owner then got back in touch asking for it back - but it was explained to him that that ship had passed and the guitar was now in pieces.

(PS -The guitar may now be back in one piece, (albeit with a new loom and pup) in my living room, with "Chinese Fake!!" scratched into the pickup cavity and control cavity - I still really like the neck on it!)

Just so I haven't got the wrong end of the stick, you took it apart, wrote a letter of proof from your own 'company' then got your money back, then reassembled it and kept it?

Ah so it's OK to defraud ebay but not OK to defraud a person? 

Your just as bad.

Sambostar

I quite like fake, the fake Adidas trainers I bought from a shop in Plaistow years ago outlasted the originals. I'm working on a Jackson Firebird replica, I have two Charvel Star replicas, only one has a Charvel neck.  I'd quite like some thru neck Jackson  Firebirds or Stars though and I made a Malmsteen 62 replica with a decent scalloped neck out of a trashed MIM neck that someone had badly scalloped. 

I'd have no problem buying a fake Les Paul or making one, the problem for me is that to be at the quality level of the real deal, you are basically spending real money so you may as well just get a cheap used standard or classic.  That said, I'd never be able to afford a 70's or early 80's LP Custom so I'd be quite happy with an Aria or a home made one.

I'd quite like a Kotzen style Tele with a slab of maple over Swamp ash, would I pay that sort of real money for it?  Not a chance.  Would I make a body and put a MIM neck on it, probably.

As for something with a badge, made from several dubious pieces of wood with veneer on it front and back and a scarf joint on the neck, erm no thanks.

 I have never sold a guitar in my life though.

I do quite like the idea of an Iveco 35c12 with a Merc badge on it, only because it makes me laugh.  I'd probably still get the Merc though as the Iveco falls apart and the Transit rots too much.

Neil

Strat54 said:

I long since gave up policing the internet fake Fender's. Initially it annoyed me having seen dozens and dozens of buyers pay $700-900 for fake Fender Custom Shop necks, I posted these everywhere, contacted the sellers, contacted the buyers but still they all persisted. Some of the unfortunate buyers on ebay realised they had fakes others buried their heads despite me having confirmation from Fender C.S themselves. These went out all over the globe, Coda Music ended up with one for sale till I pointed it out to them. The fakes were that good, just a few tiny details were wrong but unless you'd dissected dozens like me then you could be forgiven for missing them. Eventually they seemed to die down despite correcting a couple of the tells having read on a forum where I'd foolishly posted the detail. I guess the seller who even went as far as having an ex Masterbuilders name in his email address made enough and quit. Probably sold a couple of hundred over a couple of years so a nice earner. Every now and then one will surface for sale though, last fake I saw had the Todd Krause logo on it. Buyer beware as always, and never be afraid to ask on forums for help if in doubt.

It just shows how insidious counterfeits can filter down the market.

Someone buys from a proper seller and has no idea he has bought a fake.

They may not ever realise.

Doesn't make it OK though.

Buying counterfeit goods just perpetuates the market.

moogie72

Teetonetal said:

impmann said:

Frankly, the only folks I've ever really encountered who get so worked up about Chibsons/Fake Fenders etc is you lot. Seriously...

I think some of you need to calm down a bit, as there are worse crimes in this world!

Yes there are. But actually fraud is a pretty mean crime too. Just because it's a guitar doesn't trivialise it.

We, as a guitar playing community, are exactly the ones who should care. 

Bang on mate with your comment, if folk who know about guitars shed responsibility , oh look there's a fake, being sold as real but I'm not bothering report I'll let some idiot buy it instead....they are not an idiot, they are being subject to crime. If you saw someone breaking into a house...would you not call the Babylon?

and to be honest those who laugh and scoff at repos/fakes are even more highbrow than the ones who care.

look at me everyone....I'm so cool I can spot a fake, and make jokes how you will buy it cause you can tell the difference , rather than some pleb who will throw away hard earned cash on it

why can't there be a perm sticky thread with possible reports on fake listings, I bet if there was , we would see patterns of where they come from and multiple seller IDs etc

not only would this be useful to anyone looking in a second hand market, or even posts on information of how to spot...as the biggest U.K. Online guitar community don't we owe it to ourselves?

mikeyrob73

well the guitar that started this thread has been sold as its gone from Gumtree. Not to me i hasten to add 

Bridgehouse

mikeyrob73 said:

well the guitar that started this thread has been sold as its gone from Gumtree. Not to me i hasten to add 

Your quest for a replacement for the Dean continues huh?

mikeyrob73

nah, that can never be replaced @Bridgehouse ;; i would have just bought that Chibson for shits and giggles 

to be honest apart from looking for a beater for the young un my GAS days are over for the time being. Classic Vibe, Firebird, PRS S2 and Partsobastard,its all i really need. im cured of GAS 

Bridgehouse

mikeyrob73 said:

im cured of GAS 

  

mikeyrob73

I did say "for the time being" :-p 

Strangefan

Strat54 said:

I long since gave up policing the internet fake Fender's. Initially it annoyed me having seen dozens and dozens of buyers pay $700-900 for fake Fender Custom Shop necks, I posted these everywhere, contacted the sellers, contacted the buyers but still they all persisted. Some of the unfortunate buyers on ebay realised they had fakes others buried their heads despite me having confirmation from Fender C.S themselves. These went out all over the globe, Coda Music ended up with one for sale till I pointed it out to them. The fakes were that good, just a few tiny details were wrong but unless you'd dissected dozens like me then you could be forgiven for missing them. Eventually they seemed to die down despite correcting a couple of the tells having read on a forum where I'd foolishly posted the detail. I guess the seller who even went as far as having an ex Masterbuilders name in his email address made enough and quit. Probably sold a couple of hundred over a couple of years so a nice earner. Every now and then one will surface for sale though, last fake I saw had the Todd Krause logo on it. Buyer beware as always, and never be afraid to ask on forums for help if in doubt.






And this is exactly y why I wouldn't never pay over £500 for a bolt on solid body, if you fooled by a fake custom shop and even well known shops are, how good are the real ones!? I had a custom shop strat with "abby" pickups nothing really set it apart from any other strat, it's all marketing rubbish. 

badlydrawnbanjo

A couple of high end "fakes" being discussed in this (rather long) rig run down. 

Nick

If a guitar infringes on the copyright or IP of a manufacturer - using the brand name and headstock shape, for example - then it is a counterfeit. The intent is not wholly important.

Exactly the same when it comes to "replica" Rolex watches. Some may have Swiss ETA movements and a case with almost the exact dimensions as the real thing, but are still counterfeit.

Teetonetal

Nick said:

If a guitar infringes on the copyright or IP of a manufacturer - using the brand name and headstock shape, for example - then it is a counterfeit. The intent is not wholly important.

Exactly the same when it comes to "replica" Rolex watches. Some may have Swiss ETA movements and a case with almost the exact dimensions as the real thing, but are still counterfeit.

Exactly, The value of something is often not contained in the thing itself but in the maker's name - It's arguable that some of the fakes are better than a Brand, but, crucially they are not the brand. Adding the brand name can only be for one reason, to falsely make the object more desirable and illicit a higher price.

Garthy

Teetonetal said:

Garthy said:

Gagaryn said:

Skipped said:

stimpsonslostson said:

I'm sure I read somewhere that if you buy a "replica/fake/whatever you want to call it" off ebay. Then once it's arrived you report it to ebay as a fake (with sufficient evidence) even if it was advertised as such ebay will give you a refund and instruct you to destroy the item... how they verify the destruction I don't know.

I think it works like this.
You buy a Replica on ebay. You then contact ebay and say "I have bought a counterfeit Les Paul made by (name of builder) but I suspect it was made by BobBurst".
Ebay then say "We don't care who made it. It now has to be destroyed"
You then destroy the guitar, and provide evidence....or you send it to the Copywrite owner (Gibson) who destroy the guitar and confirm to ebay. Ebay pay for Gibson to destroy the guitar.
Ebay then refund your £7000.

Does anybody disagree?  

My mate bought a "Fender Custom Shop" Precision Bass a few years back on eBay. When it arrived it was a POS - cheap Chinese body, mini pots, $5 pup but a surprisingly nice neck. We got in touch with the seller in case it he was genuinely in the dark about it, even phoning him but he didn't want to know - the offer was to return at his expense after a full refund was made but he still claimed it was genuine and now not his problem.

Long story short - got in touch with eBay explaining it was a fake, they asked for written proof on headed paper from an "expert" that the guitar was fake - so I wrote a letter on "Gagaryn Guitars" or similar headed paper confirming its fakeness including a picture of the guitar dismantled as proof of its "destruction" and he was promptly refunded.

The owner then got back in touch asking for it back - but it was explained to him that that ship had passed and the guitar was now in pieces.

(PS -The guitar may now be back in one piece, (albeit with a new loom and pup) in my living room, with "Chinese Fake!!" scratched into the pickup cavity and control cavity - I still really like the neck on it!)

Just so I haven't got the wrong end of the stick, you took it apart, wrote a letter of proof from your own 'company' then got your money back, then reassembled it and kept it?

Ah so it's OK to defraud ebay but not OK to defraud a person? 

Your just as bad.

Where did I say it was ok to defraud?

Teetonetal

Garthy said:

Teetonetal said:

Garthy said:

Gagaryn said:

Skipped said:

stimpsonslostson said:

I'm sure I read somewhere that if you buy a "replica/fake/whatever you want to call it" off ebay. Then once it's arrived you report it to ebay as a fake (with sufficient evidence) even if it was advertised as such ebay will give you a refund and instruct you to destroy the item... how they verify the destruction I don't know.

I think it works like this.
You buy a Replica on ebay. You then contact ebay and say "I have bought a counterfeit Les Paul made by (name of builder) but I suspect it was made by BobBurst".
Ebay then say "We don't care who made it. It now has to be destroyed"
You then destroy the guitar, and provide evidence....or you send it to the Copywrite owner (Gibson) who destroy the guitar and confirm to ebay. Ebay pay for Gibson to destroy the guitar.
Ebay then refund your £7000.

Does anybody disagree?  

My mate bought a "Fender Custom Shop" Precision Bass a few years back on eBay. When it arrived it was a POS - cheap Chinese body, mini pots, $5 pup but a surprisingly nice neck. We got in touch with the seller in case it he was genuinely in the dark about it, even phoning him but he didn't want to know - the offer was to return at his expense after a full refund was made but he still claimed it was genuine and now not his problem.

Long story short - got in touch with eBay explaining it was a fake, they asked for written proof on headed paper from an "expert" that the guitar was fake - so I wrote a letter on "Gagaryn Guitars" or similar headed paper confirming its fakeness including a picture of the guitar dismantled as proof of its "destruction" and he was promptly refunded.

The owner then got back in touch asking for it back - but it was explained to him that that ship had passed and the guitar was now in pieces.

(PS -The guitar may now be back in one piece, (albeit with a new loom and pup) in my living room, with "Chinese Fake!!" scratched into the pickup cavity and control cavity - I still really like the neck on it!)

Just so I haven't got the wrong end of the stick, you took it apart, wrote a letter of proof from your own 'company' then got your money back, then reassembled it and kept it?

Ah so it's OK to defraud ebay but not OK to defraud a person? 

Your just as bad.

Where did I say it was ok to defraud?

@Garthy that wasn't aimed at you, I was agreeing with you. Last bit was aimed at Gagaryn!

Garthy

Ok cool

mikeyrob73

all this thread has done is make me want a Chibson or a Rockinbetter or whatever 

moogie72

Oh what have I done