Custom Shop Fenders

Bridgehouse

Ah @guitars4you y u no do basses?

Limited edition CS P bass?

Yum.

guitars4you

Bridgehouse said:

Strangefan said:

I think my problem is you can only make a strat so good.
The plastic is plastic, the trems still standard trems,  only difference is the wood, but even then it's standard strat wood  covered in paint and lacquer.
If they started to use their skills on more exotic pieces say a strat with rubbed down exotic woods and a bubinga  neck I could totally see it but in all honesty what they're making at the mo  for me  it can't be any better than a great strat, as the other bits are totally industry standard. 
Just buy a usa reissue and you have 99 percent of the custom shop........ And don't  get me started on yabarra pickups!!

Now to be fair (and I know, I know, it's basses but it still applies..) I've tried an American Standard P, and a Custom Shop P, and of course some Vintage P's including a pre-CBS.

The American Standard was good, don't get me wrong, but it was no where near 99% of either the custom shop, or the pre-CBS. I would say the Custom Shop was possibly 95%+ of the pre-CBS. Maybe more. 

The American Standard was just very different. Tone, playability, feel, everything... a very good bass, but discernibly different to either the CS or the pre-CBS

I think you are right on this - If and I still believe it is an if in many instances, but if they have not nailed to the nth degree, all the fine attributes of a good old one, then they are damn close - When you look at the cost of a Custom Shop guitar that you can own, gig, insure and replace if required against the cost of an original model, that might have many question marks regarding fake/originality etc, then I don't mind if they are a gnats whisker behind - An in IMO and yours they offer a more pleasurable experience than Standard production models

Philly_Q

I don't know much about vintage guitars - well, I know a lot about them but I haven't actually played very many.  So I don't know how Custom Shop Fenders compare with the originals.

But I do know that the Custom Shop Fenders I've owned and played have been consistently better than any other Fenders I've owned - from Squiers to MIJs to MIMs to American Standards to AVRIs.  I'm happy to pay the extra money when I can afford it.

thebreeze

richardhomer said:

There are plenty of decent playing, decent sounding Strats at all price points - but a good CS one is far closer to the best vintage guitars than (say) an early 70s CBS Strat that these days seem to be more expensive.

This.  

I've played one Standard USA (from recent years) when I've thought "wow" this is something else. However, I think this very often when I play a CS.

Bridgehouse

guitars4you said:

I think you are right on this - If and I still believe it is an if in many instances, but if they have not nailed to the nth degree all the fine attributes of a good old one, then they are damn close - When you look at the cost of a Custom Shop guitar that you can own, gig, insure and replace if required against the cost of an original model, that might have many question marks regarding fake/originality etc, then I don't mind if they are a gnats whisker behind - An in IMO and yours they offer a more pleasurable experience than Standard production models

Nail on the head mate.

I consider myself very lucky to have owned some cracking vintage originals. Similarly, I consider myself lucky that I have a pre-CBS P which is everything I could have wanted from it. It's a one owner, I know the history, and I paid a big whack getting it from a dealer I trust.

Note the key word tho - lucky. I'm lucky that the big chunk of change I laid out on the P has worked out. 

If I went to a shop and bought a corker of a CS P which was 99 ish % of the way there, with a few minor differences, then I wouldn't consider myself lucky. There's no risk in that. Fender are producing CS guitars and basses for buyers who want most of the vintage feel and vibe with none of the risk. And they succeed in that. More than Gibson do. Much more than Gibson do.

Would I gig my 64P? No, probably not. I've insured it in case I do - which has cost an arm and a leg to do so. But the main problem is that it's pretty irreplaceable - I may find another one, but to find one as good I'd be lucky.

Would I gig a CS 64 P reissue? Yes, absolutely. If I'm lucky enough to build up my gear fund to consider getting a CS 64 P purely to gig with, then that's exactly what I will do.

guitars4you

Bridgehouse said:

One of these days I would love to try a Custom Shop 1964 Anniversary Precision Heavy Relic.

All the pictures I've seen of them look so very similar to mine that I would just love to do a side by side comparison and see how it stacks up against the original. It's the same colour, same tort on the guard, same fingerboard nut width, the lot.. 

Most of all, I would love to know if you can tell by feel and tone alone which one is which...

I think you would find subtle but effective variations - not necessarily better/worse but different - yet equally trying to original models side by side, or indeed 2 replicas side by side would often reveal similar slight variations - I think when you are at this end of the market you should not be finding poor examples but you might prefer a to b - which is fine

many times I've had customers come over to try say 3-4 or 5 C/Shop Strats and may get it down to a short list of 2, based on some mojo they prefer - Then argue/debate amongst themselves for 30 mins, trying these two examples, deciding which they will buy - They may well have subtle variations regarding tonal character but both are good examples

I've even known customers come over to buy say a 62 in white, but end up with a 62 in s/burst as for some reason the s/burst talks back to them in a way they prefer - Good to be open minded and let your hands and ears be the judge

Bridgehouse

As a side note to this - I was at Bass Direct at the weekend buying ampage. I took the 64 P along to try through some amps.

The guy who was helping me out there had a play on my 64 for a bit. His comment was very interesting, and totally unprompted - "Wow, this is the best P I've played in years. It's just very slightly better than the Custom Shop P I had a little while back and stupidly sold. Man, I miss that bass.. Should never have sold it"

And there you have the reason Fender make CS guitars & basses..

guitars4you

Bridgehouse said:

guitars4you said:

I think you are right on this - If and I still believe it is an if in many instances, but if they have not nailed to the nth degree all the fine attributes of a good old one, then they are damn close - When you look at the cost of a Custom Shop guitar that you can own, gig, insure and replace if required against the cost of an original model, that might have many question marks regarding fake/originality etc, then I don't mind if they are a gnats whisker behind - An in IMO and yours they offer a more pleasurable experience than Standard production models

Nail on the head mate.

I consider myself very lucky to have owned some cracking vintage originals. Similarly, I consider myself lucky that I have a pre-CBS P which is everything I could have wanted from it. It's a one owner, I know the history, and I paid a big whack getting it from a dealer I trust.

Note the key word tho - lucky. I'm lucky that the big chunk of change I laid out on the P has worked out. 

If I went to a shop and bought a corker of a CS P which was 99 ish % of the way there, with a few minor differences, then I wouldn't consider myself lucky. There's no risk in that. Fender are producing CS guitars and basses for buyers who want most of the vintage feel and vibe with none of the risk. And they succeed in that. More than Gibson do. Much more than Gibson do.

Would I gig my 64P? No, probably not. I've insured it in case I do - which has cost an arm and a leg to do so. But the main problem is that it's pretty irreplaceable - I may find another one, but to find one as good I'd be lucky.

Would I gig a CS 64 P reissue? Yes, absolutely. If I'm lucky enough to build up my gear fund to consider getting a CS 64 P purely to gig with, then that's exactly what I will do.

and in addition to this you have to count how many good old vintage models are out there for sale - and at the prices they are at today, it is a very very small market place indeed - C/Shop alone is  a similar size business to PRS, so pushing around 9/10,000 models a year - Year on year we can't find that many old 'uns - So the C/Shop guys have filled a huge gap in the market place

jeztone2

I once spent an afternoon in 2005 with a CS Clapton, an EJ Strat & a FSR 62 American Deluxe, which was a limited run version of the American Deluxe, a SCN noiseless fitted guitar with a 60's C neck & vintage style bridge. Weirdly enough I bonded with the FSR, but that was down to neck profile more than build. 

Now despite my very limited experience of vintage guitars, I suspect there were plenty of terrible ones. I think the whole vintage patina thing is its own aesthetic. Im not into relics, but Id sooner gig a CS Strat than some of the mi 70's ones Ive played. That to me is the joke. How a 76 Strat is four figures, when you could pick one up for £250 in 1987. That just amazes me.

I just think the golden age of guitar building is now. The next big change will be environmental impacts on wood supply. But then who can predict the future?

Strat54

Strangefan said:

Fenders  were  never ever originally designed to be a hand made item,  it was mass produced.

This Broadcaster looks pretty handmade to me....

https://reverb-res.cloudinary.com/image/upload/s--wy5vQ7OI--/a_exif,c_limit,e_unsharp_mask:80,f_auto,fl_progressive,g_south,h_620,q_90,w_620/v1476722911/t0evkbyexeyvysbxambh.jpg

Fender made 5500 guitars approximately between 1950-54, that's less than the Custom Shop produces today.

octatonic

guitars4you said:

octatonic said:

guitars4you said:

I think additionally that whilst the build quality of Suhr's and Anderson's is top quality with a slick playing action, they do have a tendency to be pure and lacking in character regarding tonal quality compared to a more 'organic' voice of a vintage replica - IMO

I don't agree with this.

CS Strats looks old on a surface level but they aren't and you know they aren't.
It is a bit like the new 'retro' styled motorcycles from Triumph or BMW- they look authentic right up until you put them side by side to the 'real thing' and then they look a bit mickey mouse.

I'm of the opinion that the player does most the work anyway and that any good player can get the tones they need out of an instrument they have confidence in.

I find more so when comparing a C/Shop replica to a 'similar' Suhr/Anderson traditional based classic models that I think they have some 'purity' about them as though they are to perfect - IMO the C/Shop is more organic

I'm not sure what you mean old on the surface but not old 'under the bonnet' - They are not trying to reinvent the wheel or to create something fresh - they have studied enough good old models to see what makes  a good old one magical and the C/Shop guys use these good vintage models as a bench mark as to what they are trying to achieve - I feel they can't improve on a good old one, but many old guitars are not good - Granted chunkier frets and a 9.5" radius enhance the playing performance

I do agree you need confidence in how a guitar feels and plays in order to get the best out of the tone - But just playing a big open E acoustically I feel a C/Shop is more organic and less pure

This is where we disagree- words like 'organic' and 'pure' are, from my perspective, marketing spin- it is an attempt to apply emotional language to what is essentially a very precisely made product, made out of metal and wood- like all the other guitars in the world.

They are produced mostly by the same methods and the fairy dust relic finishing is a marketing approach that clearly works.
Combinate that with the perceived heritage of the brand and you have a product that sells.
That is great- but I see through the marketing spin and look at the product.
They make a fine product- no doubt about that.

guitars4you

octatonic said:

guitars4you said:

octatonic said:

guitars4you said:

I think additionally that whilst the build quality of Suhr's and Anderson's is top quality with a slick playing action, they do have a tendency to be pure and lacking in character regarding tonal quality compared to a more 'organic' voice of a vintage replica - IMO

I don't agree with this.

CS Strats looks old on a surface level but they aren't and you know they aren't.
It is a bit like the new 'retro' styled motorcycles from Triumph or BMW- they look authentic right up until you put them side by side to the 'real thing' and then they look a bit mickey mouse.

I'm of the opinion that the player does most the work anyway and that any good player can get the tones they need out of an instrument they have confidence in.

I find more so when comparing a C/Shop replica to a 'similar' Suhr/Anderson traditional based classic models that I think they have some 'purity' about them as though they are to perfect - IMO the C/Shop is more organic

I'm not sure what you mean old on the surface but not old 'under the bonnet' - They are not trying to reinvent the wheel or to create something fresh - they have studied enough good old models to see what makes  a good old one magical and the C/Shop guys use these good vintage models as a bench mark as to what they are trying to achieve - I feel they can't improve on a good old one, but many old guitars are not good - Granted chunkier frets and a 9.5" radius enhance the playing performance

I do agree you need confidence in how a guitar feels and plays in order to get the best out of the tone - But just playing a big open E acoustically I feel a C/Shop is more organic and less pure

This is where we disagree- words like 'organic' and 'pure' are, from my perspective, marketing spin- it is an attempt to apply emotional language to what is essentially a very precisely made product, made out of metal and wood- like all the other guitars in the world.

They are produced mostly by the same methods and the fairy dust relic finishing is a marketing approach that clearly works.
Combinate that with the perceived heritage of the brand and you have a product that sells.
That is great- but I see through the marketing spin and look at the product.
They make a fine product- no doubt about that.

I'm sure we'd agree that different guitars have various attributes that suit us, or disagree with us - That is why I often state that the best guitar in the world does not exist, as we can't agree what it is - We can only use certain adjectives to describe what we experience when we play a guitar - Maybe Shelley and Shakespeare might be able to do a better job with the use of the English dictionary, but I can only use words that I feel suit what I'm hearing

We both know that playing a selection of C/Shop  models and you will find certain guitars possess attributes that will suit one player, but not another - So it is only fair to say the same experience can be found when comparing a Suhr or Anderson or C/Shop - I'm not saying either are better - All are excellent guitars in that price range and set the bench marks that others need to measure up against - I feel that such guitars are so well built today that you can't really surpass that - Hence no real obsolescence in the guitar industry

I judge guitars with my hands and ears not eyes and I'm sure you do likewise when building your guitars, staring of with the selection of wood - I have been known to send the odd new C/Shop back if it sounds like a wet cardboard box, but I do find this is a rare event

Voxman

octatonic said:

This is where we disagree- words like 'organic' and 'pure' are, from my perspective, marketing spin- it is an attempt to apply emotional language to what is essentially a very precisely made product, made out of metal and wood- like all the other guitars in the world.  They are produced mostly by the same methods and the fairy dust relic finishing is a marketing approach that clearly works.

We all know that some guitars have a 'mojo' that's hard to define.  'Precisely made' suggests that every guitar is an identical clone but I'm not sure I agree with that.  I've played quite a few Custom Shop guitars and even those made in the same 'batch' can vary.  All will usually be very good, but some are very, very good.  Slight differences in pick-up windings, a smidgeon difference in neck profile, or different batches of wood etc all contribute to how a guitar feels and sounds. Re 'descriptors' resonance is perhaps a better word than organic, and can vary between guitars.  But using emotive words is valid from the perspective that we all of us (usually) form an emotional bond at some level or other with the guitars we own (if we don't, we usually sell them on) and how a guitar makes us feel when we play it surely is at least as important as how others (or an osciloscope) might hear/scientifically analyse it.  

crunchman

guitars4you said:

I think additionally that whilst the build quality of Suhr's and Anderson's is top quality with a slick playing action, they do have a tendency to be pure and lacking in character regarding tonal quality compared to a more 'organic' voice of a vintage replica - IMO

I wonder what they would sound like with a vintage style bridge assembly.  The vast majority of the S style models are 2 point bridges.  To my ears vintage style bridges definitely sound better.  How would a Suhr sound with a vintage style bridge?

richardhomer said:

I a/b'd mine with the American Vintage Strat I owned before it - the CS guitar sounded a LOT better - which is why I swapped. To be fair, it was 10 years old when I bought it - so it's probably seen plenty of use.

There is a lot of variation in AV Strats.  I've had one for 14 years that is brilliant.  I wasn't actually looking to buy a guitar when I bought it.  I was in a shop trying out an amp and they got this guitar down off the wall to try the amp with.  It was really good.  I ended up going back and buying the guitar a couple of weeks later.  For a good while after that, when I went to try out an amp, I'd use an AV 62 Strat if the shop had one to try and get an idea of what the amp would sound like with my guitar.  Every single one I played was absolutely lifeless compared with mine.

The other thing to bear in mind is that the 57/62 pickups in the older AV Strats aren't as good as the pickups in most CS guitars.  Mine did sound really good with the stock pickups but I've now got Fralins in it and it's even better.  I've not played the newer AV series guitars so I don't know what the pickups in those are like.

On the other hand I did have a CS Tele (52 specs) for a couple of years.  When I bought it I did try one or 2 AVRI 52s that were nowhere near as good.

The AV reissues are made to the right recipe and if you get a good one then they are really good, but they do vary.  There is a much higher chance of getting a great guitar with the CS stuff but you can find them in the AV series or even the Mexican Classic Series.  I've A/Bed a Mexican Classic Series Strat with a high end US one that cost 2 and half times as much and the Mexican one kicked it's butt.  Admittedly the Mexican one was vintage spec (apart from the non-nitro finish) where the US one was more modern spec - which takes me back to the Suhr thing.  There is something about the recipe of the vintage spec guitars that makes them different, and they sound better to my ears than a guitar with modern "refinements".

While you can find good guitars in the cheaper ranges, you might find 1 in 20 great guitars in the Mexican range, 3 in 20 with the AV series, and 14 in 20 with the CS guitars.  There is also something nice about having a CS guitar - even if it is for shallow reasons.

HPhillipsmusic

I think with all brands and ages - you get gems and you get very forgettable guitars.

 I own a classic series 50's Mexican Tele and Strat and they both are beautiful guitars. I've had them for years, I play with the set up all the time and I can get them to be whatever I like really. I fit CS pickups in them and they're solid, comfortable and sound great.

However my '63 CS Tele is like driving a Ferrari after those 2 Ford Fiestas - It's tone is so focused and specific - in fact everytime I get a chance to play it live it reminds me SO much of Mike Bloomfields tele on Highway 61 Revisited - that cutting, screaming 60's tele sound - very different from blackguards. 

I don't necessarily prefer the CS, in fact I play the £350 strat more often than any of my guitars, even over a £3500 ES335, they are all different. I just think that Custom Shop guitars have a little more focus in their sound and playability. 

One thing I do hate though is walking into any number of great guitar shops that stock CS guitars, picking one off the wall and finding it set up with super light gauge strings that does it NO favours at all. 

Lastly, I really love Nitrocellulose on a guitar - my CS will chip at the slightest knock, whereas my Mexicans feel like I'll never get through that lacquer. Aesthetic or not, I like that closeness between me and the wood, it feels like the guitar can breathe a lot more.

Harry

peteri

Great thread -

My experience - I'm lucky enough to own three vintage guitars (72 Les Paul Custom, 66 Strat and the 62 DC Special from Bridgehouse).

I've played a lot of CS Strats before I got the Strat and a similar (although slightly lower) number of R7/8/9/0 Les Pauls.

I also own a USA Standard Strat I've had from near as dammit new in the mid-90s.

To my mind the run of the mill CS strats are kind of where the Standard should be but actually isn't - I don't know why, but I don't find the standards that amazing. I think the 'production line' CS guitars fill that void, despite having a very battered strat - I hate the relics, it just looks wrong to me - and nothing like the genuine wear on mine.

When I started on this journey I planned to buy CS, but then I played a few of these and they left me cold.

Same with the Gibson (actually more so) - they weren't even close to my old one.

Then I played a CS at Coda when I was trying my amp, and it was very good - was it as good as my original? No, but it was close - for me the big difference I notice is the shoulder on the neck, it's not quite the same - but on a good (Coda/Guitars4you) level CS it's close enough. Close enough that when I get a Tele (what I'm missing), if I can't find what I like and can afford vintage (likely) I would certainly look CS route.

So my take is that good CS guitars are close, they're not there - but close.

Run of the mill CS, are still good guitars - but not really there.

Standards aren't what they were/should be.

Gibson - sorry don't get it, the prices and quality are just completely not where they should be.

And I completely agree - I've played a few 70's Strats, if it were the choice between one of those or a nice CS guitar, no comparison - CS all the way (and they're cheaper).

guitars4you

crunchman said:

guitars4you said:

I think additionally that whilst the build quality of Suhr's and Anderson's is top quality with a slick playing action, they do have a tendency to be pure and lacking in character regarding tonal quality compared to a more 'organic' voice of a vintage replica - IMO

I wonder what they would sound like with a vintage style bridge assembly.  The vast majority of the S style models are 2 point bridges.  To my ears vintage style bridges definitely sound better.  How would a Suhr sound with a vintage style bridge?

I think there is  case to be made for the  'boutique' builders to utilse certain modern components, so with various exotic woods, they can be seen to have a differential offering to the traditionalist - otherwise if they only another copy of a vintage Strat, that is built to the nth degree, then they are competing directly with Fender - And we appear to have established that we are at the pinnacle of guitar building, so if you can't beat them then look at a more 'modern approach albeit retaining select traditional features  - It is not a case of better but different

I recall a phrase from the past - If you can't be better you have to be different - if you can't be different you have to be better

crunchman

peteri said:

So my take is that good CS guitars are close, they're not there - but close.

How much of that is just needing 30 years of playing and age?

GavRichList

A CS Jazzmaster is the very top of my want list these days. As I currently have an AVRI Jazzmaster and a pre-cbs Jaguar, it's the one thing left for me to want really. The 60s jag certainly feels a league above; that undefinable thing, but I love my AVRI JM and certainly play that more, as there is a certain comfort in the knowledge that it's pretty replaceable. I think a CS would fall into the middle ground - something that extensively plays as near as dammit to a good vintage, but without any of the subliminally perceived fragility of a 55 year old guitar. Add to that the comparative costs (I want a custom colour JM, so a vintage would be between 2 and 3 times the cost) it currently appeals to me more than a vintage. 

Bridgehouse

crunchman said:

peteri said:

So my take is that good CS guitars are close, they're not there - but close.

How much of that is just needing 30 years of playing and age?

Without being facetious, I guess we will know in 30 years..

But to an extent, my guess would be yes - 30 years of playing and age will get them there. The underlying quality is right.