Nitro on poly... what's the point?

Strat_a_tat_tat

Firstly, I'll confess... I like thin nitro finishes on solid-body electric guitars. I don't know why, but many (but not all) of the most resonant electric guitars I've played have had nitro finishes. Whether it's because the nitro is lighter in weight than a thick poly finish... or nitro lets the wood breathe (or dry out, over time)... I don't know.

So... when it comes to guitars with a poly basecoat and a nitro top coat... is that just marketing (so the nitro-obsessed buyers can feel happy parting with their cash)? Surely, with a poly basecoat, the 'nitro lets your guitar breathe' type of argument is null and void (??).

What's view of the learned chaps and chapesses here?

Danielsguitars

Just marketing bollocks as usual, it's not the same imo

Plus the nitro most manufacturers are using has a load of plasticizers in it so it doesn't check like the old stuff

richardhomer

Strat_a_tat_tat said:

Surely, with a poly basecoat, the 'nitro lets your guitar breathe' type of argument is null and void (??).

If poly didn't allow wood to breathe, 70s Fenders wouldn't need truss rods, as the moisture content of the wood would never change - so I don't accept that from the proponents of nitro.

I think the thickness and hardness of the finish makes a significant difference to the tone and feel of a guitar - and agree nitro probably achieves that better than anything else. It also ages gracefully.

Strat_a_tat_tat

richardhomer said:

Strat_a_tat_tat said:

Surely, with a poly basecoat, the 'nitro lets your guitar breathe' type of argument is null and void (??).

If poly didn't allow wood to breathe, 70s Fenders wouldn't need truss rods, as the moisture content of the wood would never change - so I don't accept that from the proponents of nitro.

I think the thickness and hardness of the finish makes a significant difference to the tone and feel of a guitar - and agree nitro probably achieves that better than anything else. It also ages gracefully.

Re. 70s Fenders... I guess, if the neck has a rosewood board, there's plenty of opportunity for it to breathe. If it's a maple board, I'm wondering whether the inevitable gaps and cracks around the frets are enough to let the wood breathe (very, very slowly) over time.

Wolfetone

I'm not convinced on the nitro vs poly thing. I have a very nice PRS that doesn't appear to suffer because of its poly finish. Some the nicest electrics I have played have been poly. It's a solid guitar so I don't think it matters what finish is on it apart from aesthetics perhaps.

When it comes to acoustics, I would certainly say that's an entirely different thing. Acoustics are very sensitive to wood type and finish. 

thermionic

I have a nitro over poly Lacquer Jaguar in my hands now, and compared to my other poly-only guitars, it does look and feel classier somehow. Fine wear scratches on hard poly look like scratches, on nitro they seem to create a soft, blurry patina. Have I succumbed to marketing bollocks? I'm usually an arch-sceptic. A poly base or sealing coat is not a new thing, as many of the old "breathing" guitars were painted in this way.

I don't buy into the "breathe" thing, because nitro paints were used in the mid part of the 20th century to stop steel cars from rusting!

rossi

I did it to a  GFS strat sunburst body .I went over it with fiesta red nitro and its got a great patina and also just slowly small dings  wearing off the red to show burst underneath .nothing drastic.Nitro always looks better as it polishes ,sinks in ,fades ,polishes up again etc .Its always on the move ,  where as poly is just  too cheapy  shiny  for me . The breathing  thing is utter crap .

wackojacko

It's just marketing.

the tree stopped breathing the moment it was cut down.

i know what you mean though - I built a "relic" partscaster last year with a very thin nitro finish and you can really feel it vibrating.

thicker finishes muffle the wood - rather than stopping it from breathing. 

Strat_a_tat_tat

Well.... 'breathing' obviously isn't the correct word, technically speaking... but it's the word that people use. I think it really just a reference to whether the wood under the finish is readily able to exchange moisture with the atmosphere. Personally, I think nitro allows that type of 'breathing' more than many of the urethane or acrylic finishes or primers.

JezWynd

Nitro over poly will also allow the instrument to age more gracefully as the Niro finish yellows over time and exposure to the sun.

ICBM

thermionic said:

I have a nitro over poly Lacquer Jaguar in my hands now, and compared to my other poly-only guitars, it does look and feel classier somehow. Fine wear scratches on hard poly look like scratches, on nitro they seem to create a soft, blurry patina. Have I succumbed to marketing bollocks? I'm usually an arch-sceptic. A poly base or sealing coat is not a new thing, as many of the old "breathing" guitars were painted in this way.

I don't buy into the "breathe" thing, because nitro paints were used in the mid part of the 20th century to stop steel cars from rusting!

Exactly. For example all Fender guitars were sealed with a polyester base coat from (I think) 1961 onwards… including many of the now desirable vintage "nitro finish" ones.

And nitro is moisture-proof.

TimmyO

My AVRI Hot Rod Strat has nitro over poly - it's white, and has gone a lovely aged creamy white like they do, but there is a little patch where the nitro has come off and underneath it's the bright original white

Winny_Pooh

Yes Fender used loads of Fullerplast on vintage guitars. Dipped in a big vat. I love the look of nitro on vintage styled guitars, the patina, the way it sinks in and prefer thin finishes in general. I do like good poly on modern guitars like EBMM, Tom Anderson, PRS etc

Ancient_Mariner

It's all about the look & feel while ensuring the guitar is durable. I suspect that the wood requires less fine finishing with a thicker poly coat = less expensive to make.

As for resonance, all things being equal then a thinner coat should leave the instrument more readily able to vibrate, but nothing ever is equal so it probably doesn't really matter. And the placebo effect is very powerful - if you think the guitar vibrates more easily then for you it probably does.

Corvus

Cars were painted in nitro (all layers), if it wasn't water-proof or resistant it'd be useless.

Nitro over poly. This depends on what exactly they're doing, the hard sanding sealer is a different animal to paint, it's damn hard and hard work to sand. There's that slightly hysterical old web page out there which confuses things by assuming that because the sealer contains a 'thing', and some paint happens to as well, that they're the same.

I'm going to do a Jazzmaster using two-pack clear as filler/sealer, it'll be stable & easy to sand. Then nitro colour. When it chips & wears up the wood will show just the same.

The whole terminology is messed up, 'poly' is misleading. Guitars can be a single paint type, or two different types if colour coat with a clear coat. A sanding sealer, if any, is something else.

Modern clear lacquer is two-pack or 2k to us (catalysed acrylic urethane, or just 'urethane' to the yanks).

A solid colour guitar may be just two-pack colour and nothing else.

If it's clearcoat over a base colour, the colour paint is called '1k acrylic' or just 'basecoat' at the trade counter.

None of these need to be thick (though often are on cheaper guitars - less prep I would think).

Polyurethane paint was used back in the day and some mostly cheaper necks (e.g. some Squiers) do have catalysed polyurethane clearcoat, which is really a furniture/industrial finish. Most likely some bodies of cheaper guitars too but I haven't stripped any.

Polyester clear is also used, mixed more like a resin than a paint

riscado

in the end of the day a good guitar, will be a good guitar, regardless...

Danielsguitars

It's still just marketing to extract more money just like the hot hide rubbish that's a modified glue

I can't say if it's as good the same or better but I object to the constant rubbish they dream up to charge more money for something it really isn't 

rossi

wackojacko said:

It's just marketing.

the tree stopped breathing the moment it was cut down.

i know what you mean though - I built a "relic" partscaster last year with a very thin nitro finish and you can really feel it vibrating.

thicker finishes muffle the wood - rather than stopping it from breathing. 

Its the wood not the finish  I have a cheap  paulowia tele body that resonates like an acoustic .its loud ish as well unplugged .Its covered in 2K

Strat_a_tat_tat

rossi said:

wackojacko said:

It's just marketing.

the tree stopped breathing the moment it was cut down.

i know what you mean though - I built a "relic" partscaster last year with a very thin nitro finish and you can really feel it vibrating.

thicker finishes muffle the wood - rather than stopping it from breathing. 

Its the wood not the finish  I have a cheap  paulowia tele body that resonates like an acoustic .its loud ish as well unplugged .Its covered in 2K

I think it's the wood + the finish.  It's how the whole resonates.

Strat_a_tat_tat

It's times like this when we miss @randomhandclaps....

By now, he'd have photoshopped an image of someone applying a nitro clearcoat to a rather vexed parrot.

57Deluxe

You need a top coat of Nitromors by the sound of it...