Separate modelling section

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NelsonPNelsonP Frets: 3347
A question for the mods - should there be a separate section on digital modelling / FRFR etc.

I'm never sure whether to look in Amps, or FX, or both?!
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  • RolandRoland Frets: 8590
    Discussed this a number of times, and there was a public thread about a month ago. The conclusion was "no". There were several reasons, including "where do you draw the line between digital and analogue effects" and "not creating a form of apartheid between modellers and valve users". Have a search.
    Tree recycler, and guitarist with  https://www.undercoversband.com/.
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  • TimmyOTimmyO Frets: 7349
    I nearly posted the same thing yesterday.

    To avoid overloading FX I've been keeping my Helix-ish posts on that thread, but some are more generally applicable to modelling, and as you say some get started in FX and some in amps.

    I think things have got established enough that it could be its own subject area. 
    Red ones are better. 
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  • TimmyOTimmyO Frets: 7349
    Roland said:
     The conclusion was "no". There were several reasons, including "where do you draw the line between digital and analogue effects"
    I think it's pretty clear what 'modelling' is.
    Red ones are better. 
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  • EricTheWearyEricTheWeary Frets: 16253
    https://bobblepic.com/images/2017/03/20/IMG_1126.jpg

    TimmyO said:
    Roland said:
     The conclusion was "no". There were several reasons, including "where do you draw the line between digital and analogue effects"
    I think it's pretty clear what 'modelling' is.

    Tipton is a small fishing village in the borough of Sandwell. 
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  • EricTheWearyEricTheWeary Frets: 16253
    It isn't something I'm hugely interested in but I understand that most of the modellers (and most multi fx units from a £50 Zoom upwards) straddle FX and amps so I'm generally supportive of the idea. However, I wonder if in practice instead of looking in FX and Amps you end up looking in FX and Amps and Digital and just makes it all the worse. 
    Tipton is a small fishing village in the borough of Sandwell. 
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  • NelsonPNelsonP Frets: 3347
    edited March 2017
    Yes, i vaguely remembered seeing a post on this but couldn't find it.

    I'm asking again because I struggle to find the modelling relevant posts on here. They are usually well hidden in either the FX or amp sections. I think modellers are well defined enough to warrant their own section - i..e Line 6, Kemper, Fractal, Atomic Amplifire, Zoom etc.

    Althougth there are definitely some overlaps with FX and amps (e.g. Katana, Mustang etc), I think the forum would benefit from a separate section and most folks would figure out where to post appropriately.

    As for valves vs modellers, or analog vs digital. Why not both, rather than either / or?

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  • digitalscreamdigitalscream Frets: 26453
    edited March 2017
    NelsonP said:
    Yes, i vaguely remembered seeing a post on this but couldn't find it.

    I'm asking again because I struggle to find the modelling relevant posts on here. They are usually well hidden in either the FX or amp sections. I think modellers are well defined enough to warrant their own section - i..e Line 6, Kemper, Fractal, Atomic Amplifire, Zoom etc.

    Althougth there are definitely some overlaps with FX and amps (e.g. Katana, Mustang etc), I think the forum would benefit from a separate section and most folks would figure out where to post appropriately.

    There's more than "some overlaps". So...where would you put Katana, Mustang, Line 6 Spider/HD147/Vetta/Ampllifi, Bias Head, the powered Kempers, Roland Cube, Marshall Code, Vox Valvetronix, Blackstar ID/Fly, Yamaha THR5/10 etc? That's 15 amp models and ranges just off the top of my head. All of them are both amps and modellers.

    Sure you could split it into amps with digital preamps and amps with analogue preamps, but then what about amps like the Switchblade, which have digital effects in addition to valve gain stages?

    On what basis would we moderate it? We'd be constantly moving threads from one section into the other, with the ensuing pushback when somebody disagrees with us on whether an amp is a modeller or not.

    It's simply far too much of a headache to deal with effectively, and we'd spend more time answering questions on it than we would actually running the forum.
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  • NelsonPNelsonP Frets: 3347
    edited March 2017
    For me, anything that comes in a combo format is definitely still an amp and I would be inclined to post / go looking for posts about it in the amp section, even if it uses modelling.

    I don't really see the need to split analogue and digital. I can easily see a situation where someone is assessing an e.g. atomic amplifire vs tech 21 sans amp.

    I'd also allow all software based modelling.

    In terms of moderating I honestly wouldn't spend much time moving posts. Just allow folks to figure it out for themselves.
    ...but then it is not my forum ;-)





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  • FretwiredFretwired Frets: 24601
    I can't really see the issue - a modeller is a unit the models the tones of other manufacturers amps or provides a range of 'classic' tones via digital modelling.  You then have traditional valve/transistor amps - if a valve amp has digital effects its still a valve amp.

    I'd probably leave FX pedals in their own section.

    Remember, it's easier to criticise than create!
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  • Drew_TNBDDrew_TNBD Frets: 22445
    It's unnecessary and unrequired. All the uns basically.

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  • TeetonetalTeetonetal Frets: 7801
    Yup. what's the point or the real added value? 
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  • I think of the Helix , Axe-Fx range and Kemper system as preamps, hence they belong in the amp section.
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  • digitalscreamdigitalscream Frets: 26453
    NelsonP said:
    For me, anything that comes in a combo format is definitely still an amp and I would be inclined to post / go looking for posts about it in the amp section, even if it uses modelling.

    I don't really see the need to split analogue and digital. I can easily see a situation where someone is assessing an e.g. atomic amplifire vs tech 21 sans amp.

    I'd also allow all software based modelling.
    So...we end up with the Katana combos in the amp section, but the heads in the modelling section...yes?

    With the "don't see the need to split analogue and digital" - you do realise valve amps are analogue, don't you?

    You seem to be arguing both for and against a separate modelling section in the same post. This is exactly my point - if even you can't decide what's modelling and what's not when you're trying to persuade us of the value of having a separate section for it, I'm sure you can see why it'd only add to the confusion rather than remove it.

    NelsonP said:

    In terms of moderating I honestly wouldn't spend much time moving posts. Just allow folks to figure it out for themselves.
    ...but then it is not my forum ;-)

    It's our responsibility to ensure that this forum is a useful resource. The "meh, don't care, post stuff wherever you want" approach works directly against that.

    Fretwired said:
    I can't really see the issue - a modeller is a unit the models the tones of other manufacturers amps or provides a range of 'classic' tones via digital modelling.  You then have traditional valve/transistor amps - if a valve amp has digital effects its still a valve amp.
    What about the Blackstar ID series? They made a big noise about the fact that they don't model any existing amps, yet they are modelling the behaviour of valves with digital components.

    Then, of course, you get the Mooer preamp pedals, designed to digitally model existing amps.

    And, finally, you have the AMT pedals, which are preamps in and of themselves and model the tones from other manufacturers' preamps...but with analogue tech.

    It's a minefield, and unless we can define clearly what goes where...we don't do it.

    Moot point anyway, because the decision's already made.
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  • BridgehouseBridgehouse Frets: 24578
    I would apply the principle that if the primary intended use of the device is to amplify signal (whether analogue, digital, modelling, solid state or whatever) then it's in the amp sub forum.

    If the primary intended use of the device is to add effects, it's in the FX sub forum.

    For the likes of AxeFX/Helix and so forth where it's some of both, then perhaps post accordingly depending on the question/comment. However, in essence all these devices are there to offer amplification of an electric guitar output in one way or another.

    There will always be some spill over of course, and some bits that are odd, but common sense should prevail - we don't need any more sub forums as the current set covers everything.



    Now, a classifieds sub forum for all bass related stuff (basses, amps, pedals etc..) that would be good ;)
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  • dindudedindude Frets: 8534
    Little point, it's a hard job right now trying to find a post not about fractal / Helix / FRFR / presets / etc  ;)
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  • digitalscreamdigitalscream Frets: 26453

    Now, a classifieds sub forum for all bass related stuff (basses, amps, pedals etc..) that would be good ;)
    ...if somebody would like to make a case for that, I'd suggest that a good place to start would be totting up all the bass-related posts in the classifieds over the last couple of months, and then sending it to one of us :)

    (preferably broken down by instrument/effects/amp)
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  • BridgehouseBridgehouse Frets: 24578

    Now, a classifieds sub forum for all bass related stuff (basses, amps, pedals etc..) that would be good ;)
    ...if somebody would like to make a case for that, I'd suggest that a good place to start would be totting up all the bass-related posts in the classifieds over the last couple of months, and then sending it to one of us :)

    (preferably broken down by instrument/effects/amp)
    You're really making me work for this, aren't you? ;)
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  • TeetonetalTeetonetal Frets: 7801
    I would apply the principle that if the primary intended use of the device is to amplify signal (whether analogue, digital, modelling, solid state or whatever) then it's in the amp sub forum.

    If the primary intended use of the device is to add effects, it's in the FX sub forum.

    For the likes of AxeFX/Helix and so forth where it's some of both, then perhaps post accordingly depending on the question/comment. However, in essence all these devices are there to offer amplification of an electric guitar output in one way or another.

    There will always be some spill over of course, and some bits that are odd, but common sense should prevail - we don't need any more sub forums as the current set covers everything.



    Now, a classifieds sub forum for all bass related stuff (basses, amps, pedals etc..) that would be good ;)
    My Primary use of Helix is as an audio interface with built in DSP effects. I think it should go under Studio/Recording...
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  • SporkySporky Frets: 27580

    Moot point anyway, because the decision's already made.
    You say that, but it would be a fairly trivial project to post every modmin some Fox's bisquits. Let's see how long any decision lasts against that.
    "[Sporky] brings a certain vibe and dignity to the forum."
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