Martin McGuinness RIP

Jalapeno

RocknRollDave said:

Did he really "lead the IRA to abandon conflict" or did he merely find that the support - financially and otherwise - for armed conflict in NI had dropped off massively, due at least in part to the terrorist attack on American on September 11th? Was the ceasefire due to a genuine desire to move on peacefully or a regretful acceptance that the world had moved on?

Er .. bit of a temporal shift there R&RD - the peace agreement was signed in the mid 1990s (started under Major, finished by Blair) - 9/11 was 2002.

RobDavies

robgilmo said:

RobDavies said:

I find it very hard to feel any empathy for ANYONE who blows up men, women, children and animals - and shows no remorse. 

Who blows up animals?

The IRA do..... did you seriously not know this?

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/c/ca/Hyde_Park_Bombing.jpg

GoldenEraGuitars

Funny thought popped into my head overnight... (not really funny, of course).

Imagine if the Germans had made it to the UK shores. Once they had forcefully blundered their way across England they begin to ban the English language, burn the St George's flags, shoot people for no reason and raise whatever they wanted to the ground while taking over all the manor houses and estates. 

Then, imagine that an army of men with no little or no arms, no military training etc attempted to rid England of these invaders. It rumbles on for decades before finally an English politician decides to section off 1/6 of the English counties to give to the Germans as a peace deal if they leave the rest of the country. 

So there you go. Proud England, sitting with one sixth of their nation now occupied by Germany. Problem is, the settlers who want to be German, not English are oppressing your friends and family in the counties that were partitioned. They are being beaten, murdered and driven from their homes. You think you'd be able to stand aside and watch?

Its easy to say "murdering bastards" and point the finger. Truth is, the IRA was born out of necessity to rid Ireland of the Brits over a hundred years ago. It's just that their last wave of violence proved to be the biggest one we've seen yet. 

Again, I'm not agreeing with anything either side did. But we're all proud of our countries. To my English friends here... imagine how you'd feel if someone tried to take your country away from you... by force.

ICBM

That's a fair analogy, but the problem would be if the hypothetical 'ERA' started bombing in both the German part of England and Germany fifty years later and killing German civilians who have nothing to do with the oppression - then they become terrorists. That's neither justified, necessary or possibly useful in advancing their cause.

And I don't disagree at all the the fundamental cause of the Troubles is British oppression in Ireland, going back as far as the Normans and then on and off ever since. Accepting that doesn't justify murder in the present day, by either side.

But even that can be consigned to history if both sides make a proper effort to put it there.

TheBigDipper

"It's not where you're from, it's where you're at". 

Never forget, hope to forgive, move on. Refighting the past just brings it into the present. No good can come of it. 

mellowsun

Rocker said:We can only hope that the Peace Process continues especially with the added complication of Brexit.

The hard Brexit strategy pursued by May and championed by some on here does seem to be the biggest threat to the Good Friday Agreement.

Most MPs are clueless about the implications - a select committee was left speechless when it was explained to them

GoldenEraGuitars

ICBM said:

That's a fair analogy, but the problem would be if the hypothetical 'ERA' started bombing in both the German part of England and Germany fifty years later and killing German civilians who have nothing to do with the oppression - then they become terrorists. That's neither justified, necessary or possibly useful in advancing their cause.

And I don't disagree at all the the fundamental cause of the Troubles is British oppression in Ireland, going back as far as the Normans and then on and off ever since. Accepting that doesn't justify murder in the present day, by either side.

But even that can be consigned to history if both sides make a proper effort to put it there.

No of course. It's not justified at all. No murder can ever be justified.

The recent violence (late 60s onwards) was due to the oppression of Catholics in the North. They were living in poverty while the Protestants were given new houses, first pick of the jobs etc not forgetting that the RUC were made up of sectarian thugs. The RUC were responsible for burning Catholics out of their homes, murders and large scale violence. The problem for them is the republicans bit back, hard. 

Again, I'm not defending anything but I am keen to share a POV from my time here. And tbh the loyalist forces have brought much of the death on themselves because of THEIR treatment and murder of the catholic population. I'd also add that the Paras were an extremely trigger happy group of men within the army. They were responsible for both Bloody Sunday AND Ballymurphy. Thankfully, evidence is now being produced to show that everyone who was killed was a peaceful demonstrator.

Its easy for a nation to be judgemental when they are counter accused of atrocities. But that's what happened. The poor lads in the army were doing what their superiors (not even based in Northern Ireland at the time) told them to do. So I do have sympathy for the 18 year boys who patrolled the streets not knowing if they were going to be the next statistic. 

Have you heard about the army run hit squad that patrolled Belfast in the 70s/80s shooting Catholics dead at random? As far as I can see, from my research, they never got one IRA member. Both sides have a lot to answer for and hopefully now that this country has reached a level of peace within we can denounce all acts of violence. The hardcore members of the republican movement left are well armed but they have been foiled many times. It's a pity a few of them slip through the net and get away with their crimes. 

GoldenEraGuitars

mellowsun said:

Rocker said:We can only hope that the Peace Process continues especially with the added complication of Brexit.

The hard Brexit strategy pursued by May and championed by some on here does seem to be the biggest threat to the Good Friday Agreement.

Most MPs are clueless about the implications - a select committee was left speechless when it was explained to them

Northern Ireland will lose a lot after Brexit. Times are changing. 

Drew_TNBD

If you REALLY want to go back as far as the Normans, then you can't call it British oppression. The Normans weren't British. They were French. ANNNDDDDDDD they were requested to invade Ireland by an ousted Irish king!!

History is fun!

GoldenEraGuitars

Drew_TNBD said:

If you REALLY want to go back as far as the Normans, then you can't call it British oppression. The Normans weren't British. They were French. ANNNDDDDDDD they were requested to invade Ireland by an ousted Irish king!!

History is fun!

History is great fun. Ireland has had it tough for a long time. And it's a beautiful country.

Im in the middle of the north, its stunning here. Clean air, beautiful scenery and nice people. 35 minutes from everything we need/want.

Thankfully the scars are healing although some still won't let them heal altogether.

Drew_TNBD

I've never been to Ireland. Tbh, nothing about it interests me. Y'know that there is always *something* that piques your interest about a place, so you take your first trip there... just never had that for Ireland. Nor Spain for that matter! I think Japan is that obsession place for me.

I'm in London. Everything stinks, and it's an hour away. I love it.

GoldenEraGuitars

Drew_TNBD said:

I've never been to Ireland. Tbh, nothing about it interests me. Y'know that there is always *something* that piques your interest about a place, so you take your first trip there... just never had that for Ireland. Nor Spain for that matter! I think Japan is that obsession place for me.

I'm in London. Everything stinks, and it's an hour away. I love it.

Funnily enough... the north is nothing like the Republic.

Belfast may as well be called Manchester or Liverpool or Cardiff. VERY anglicised.

Drew_TNBD

lonestar said:

Drew_TNBD said:

I've never been to Ireland. Tbh, nothing about it interests me. Y'know that there is always *something* that piques your interest about a place, so you take your first trip there... just never had that for Ireland. Nor Spain for that matter! I think Japan is that obsession place for me.

I'm in London. Everything stinks, and it's an hour away. I love it.

Funnily enough... the north is nothing like the Republic.

Belfast may as well be called Manchester or Liverpool or Cardiff. VERY anglicised.

Aye, so is Benidorm according to Booze Britain.

GoldenEraGuitars

Drew_TNBD said:

lonestar said:

Drew_TNBD said:

I've never been to Ireland. Tbh, nothing about it interests me. Y'know that there is always *something* that piques your interest about a place, so you take your first trip there... just never had that for Ireland. Nor Spain for that matter! I think Japan is that obsession place for me.

I'm in London. Everything stinks, and it's an hour away. I love it.

Funnily enough... the north is nothing like the Republic.

Belfast may as well be called Manchester or Liverpool or Cardiff. VERY anglicised.

Aye, so is Benidorm according to Booze Britain.

Tbh Spain and its resorts don't interest me what so ever. 

Regardless of the cultural issues id recommend for anyone to stand in the glens of Antrim and not be impressed by how amazing our isles are

Rocker

RobDavies said:

I find it very hard to feel any empathy for ANYONE who blows up men, women, children and animals - and shows no remorse. 

Arthur "Bomber" Harris, known as "Butcher" Harris in the RAF (Dresden etc. etc.)

robgilmo

You know one thing I did notice when I first moved to England was how uneducated people here were regarding the troubles, this I noticed was down to the news that they had access to, you never once heard about a Catholic being murdered or a Catholic family being burned out of their houses, RUC members active in the UVF, but that's the media for you, they have to sell a war to the population to gain public backing. Imagine if the media pushed for a peaceful solution to war and reported an unbiased account of things? 

All I ever heard was things like ''we need to get over there and shoot them all'' , or ''Just drop a big fking bomb on them'' etc etc, I never once heard ''perhaps we need to think about a peaceful solution''. 

Bidley

Was a peaceful agenda being pushed in Ireland then?

Rocker

Very insightful comments @lonestar. I too am concerned about Brexit and the possibility/probability of a 'hard' border between both states on this island. The reported lack of understanding of this problem by UK politicians is shocking.

EricTheWeary

Drew_TNBD said:

If you REALLY want to go back as far as the Normans, then you can't call it British oppression. The Normans weren't British. They were French. ANNNDDDDDDD they were requested to invade Ireland by an ousted Irish king!!

History is fun!

The Normans weren't French, they were Normans (who were southern Scandinavians). 

Drew_TNBD

EricTheWeary said:

Drew_TNBD said:

If you REALLY want to go back as far as the Normans, then you can't call it British oppression. The Normans weren't British. They were French. ANNNDDDDDDD they were requested to invade Ireland by an ousted Irish king!!

History is fun!

The Normans weren't French, they were Normans (who were southern Scandinavians). 

They were from Normandy. Which is in France. Back in the day I don't think they referred to themselves as French though. It was all much more fragmented.

Interestingly what happened to the Anglo Saxon's is similar to the scenario put out by lonestar.