Obama, a great man

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  • MotorhateMotorhate Frets: 238

     I presume that you dislike foreign bodies getting involved in foreign elections and therefore damn Nigel Farage for his regular appearances with Donald Trump then. 
    I couldn’t care less either way to be perfectly honest. I do find it funny when the leader of the free world who has been instrumental in destabilising the Middle-East and allowing ISIS to gain a foothold in the region too claims other people are interfering in elections.
    I don’t recall Farage dictating to the population of the USA how they should vote and giving thinly veiled threats if they voted otherwise. Personally I don’t know why Farage was over there anyway and couldn't give a monkey's. He holds no UK parliamentary seat and wasn’t even leading UKIP at the time of the referendum. Trump must have had his reasons, whatever they were. I doubt it was to influence the US population though.


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  • Motorhate said:
    I don’t recall Farage dictating to the population of the USA how they should vote and giving thinly veiled threats if they voted otherwise. Personally I don’t know why Farage was over there anyway and couldn't give a monkey's. He holds no UK parliamentary seat and wasn’t even leading UKIP at the time of the referendum. Trump must have had his reasons, whatever they were. I doubt it was to influence the US population though.

    Farage did indeed give his opinion several times and his history with the like of the Heritage Foundation is easily searchable. He was leader of UKIP during the referendum and didn't stand down until July 4th. 



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  • stickyfiddlestickyfiddle Frets: 26753
    Motorhate said:

     I presume that you dislike foreign bodies getting involved in foreign elections and therefore damn Nigel Farage for his regular appearances with Donald Trump then. 
    I couldn’t care less either way to be perfectly honest. I do find it funny when the leader of the free world who has been instrumental in destabilising the Middle-East and allowing ISIS to gain a foothold in the region too claims other people are interfering in elections.
    I don’t recall Farage dictating to the population of the USA how they should vote and giving thinly veiled threats if they voted otherwise. Personally I don’t know why Farage was over there anyway and couldn't give a monkey's. He holds no UK parliamentary seat and wasn’t even leading UKIP at the time of the referendum. Trump must have had his reasons, whatever they were. I doubt it was to influence the US population though.


    Cos the Middle East was just peachy up until 2007... :rolleyes:
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  • MotorhateMotorhate Frets: 238

    Farage did indeed give his opinion several times and his history with the like of the Heritage Foundation is easily searchable. He was leader of UKIP during the referendum and didn't stand down until July 4th. 
    He gave an opinion yes, which is pretty much what every media starlet did during the election. As I said in my earlier post, Obama basically tried blackmailing the British public to vote a certain way ...

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/apr/22/barack-obama-brexit-uk-back-of-queue-for-trade-talks

    Then he talks about interfering in elections.

    Cos the Middle East was just peachy up until 2007... :rolleyes:
    I never implied it wasn't. Under his watch though Libya went belly up, with the endorsement of mob rule disposing of Gaddaffi. Hardly an endorsement for the leader of the free world. The insistence of arming rebels allied to al-Qeda in Syria was an insult to every US serviceman and woman who lost their lives in Afghanistan and Iraq.

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  • HeartfeltdawnHeartfeltdawn Frets: 22096
    edited January 2017
    Motorhate said:

    Farage did indeed give his opinion several times and his history with the like of the Heritage Foundation is easily searchable. He was leader of UKIP during the referendum and didn't stand down until July 4th. 
    He gave an opinion yes, which is pretty much what every media starlet did during the election. As I said in my earlier post, Obama basically tried blackmailing the British public to vote a certain way ...

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/apr/22/barack-obama-brexit-uk-back-of-queue-for-trade-talks

    Then he talks about interfering in elections. 


    Media starlet gave an opinion. But Farage is an MEP, not a member of fucking Steps. 

     Obama as elected leader on a state visit came and gave his opinion. Something elected leaders do. 

    Farage didn't like that and said he was interfering in a foreign election. 

    Post-Brexit, Farage went and spoke at the Heritage Foundation and then spoke at a Trump rally. Not as an elected leader representing his party, not as an MEP. As himself. Involved in a foreign election. 

    Quite simple really. 



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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 71960
    stickyfiddle said:

    Cos the Middle East was just peachy up until 2007... :rolleyes:
    It certainly wasn't - but it was worse after the bungled half-hearted attempt to remove Gaddafi, the failed experiment of imposing democracy on Egypt, and supporting a rebellion against Assad despite Russian warnings that it would lead to civil war. Obama and Hillary had a direct role in all this, without which it's likely that there would be no Daesh.

    The very last thing the region needs is any more interference from the US trying to achieve regime change. If there is anything useful the outside world can do it's to keep out and put pressure on the various regional powers to *stop* the wars, not encourage new ones. I'm sure you can see that just as well from where you are!

    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone." - Walt Kowalski

    "Just because I don't care, doesn't mean I don't understand." - Homer Simpson

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  • JezWyndJezWynd Frets: 6021
    ICBM said:
    stickyfiddle said:

    Cos the Middle East was just peachy up until 2007... :rolleyes:

    The very last thing the region needs is any more interference from the US trying to achieve regime change. If there is anything useful the outside world can do it's to keep out and put pressure on the various regional powers to *stop* the wars, not encourage new ones. I'm sure you can see that just as well from where you are!
    Agree. If there's any silver lining to Trump, it's his resolve to stay out of foreign affairs that don't concern him (though his willingness to bait the Chinese is a bit worrying).
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  • FretwiredFretwired Frets: 24601
    Motorhate said:
    He gave an opinion yes, which is pretty much what every media starlet did during the election. As I said in my earlier post, Obama basically tried blackmailing the British public to vote a certain way ...

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/apr/22/barack-obama-brexit-uk-back-of-queue-for-trade-talks


    No he didn't. David Cameron called in a favour to keep project fear on track. Had Cameron not asked (or begged) Obama would have said nothing.

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eu-referendum-iain-duncan-smith-claims-david-cameron-begged-barack-obama-to-help-him-bully-britain-a6990711.html


    Remember, it's easier to criticise than create!
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  • MotorhateMotorhate Frets: 238

    Media starlet gave an opinion. But Farage is an MEP, not a member of fucking Steps. 

    As you've already claimed Farage wasn't UKIP leader during the referendum, I'm just going to smirk at you. 

    No. I will explain. Obama as elected leader on a state visit came and gave his opinion. Something elected leaders do. 

    Farage didn't like that and said he was interfering in a foreign election. 

    Post-Brexit, Farage went and spoke at the Heritage Foundation and then spoke at a Trump rally. Not as an elected leader representing his party, not as an MEP. As himself. Involved in a foreign election. 

    Quite simple really. 
    Gold star for pointing out that Farage resigned as leader of UKIP (who weren't involved in the "Leave" campaign) four days after the referendum. Smirk all you like. I feel totally humiliated and stupid now.

    Farage is an MEP yes. Well done for spotting that. I’d wager nobody in the USA had ever heard of him before Trump brought him over so he’s hardly in a position to influence the US electorate. Obama did not simply "give an opinion". He stated that the FACT that “UK would be at the back of the queue if they voted for Brexit”. Basically blackmailing the UK electorate. If that isn’t influencing a vote then I don’t know what is.
    Aside from the above, for his interference in Middle-Eastern politics and the mess his cabinet left behind, for him to cry foul about Russia hacking emails (whether they did or didn’t is up for debate) on a system that was mis-used by one of the candidates smacks of hypocrisy IMO.

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  • CirrusCirrus Frets: 8481
    I think it's interesting that deciding how good or bad Obama is can't be rationalised without somehow judging him, rightly or wrongly, for the state of the middle east.

    Trying to take in his impact on the world as a whole turns into a massively complicated discussion full of ifs, buts, theories and conjecture about massive geopolitical issues... seems to me it becomes impossible, and it's not fair on anyone to say middle east = bad means Obama = bad.

    My take on it is that when I have seen him speak, and from the issues he campaigned on and seemed passionate about in office, he seems like a fundamentally decent person, with clear and eloquently expressed views that strike me as intelligent and balanced.

    So, on a personal level, I like him.

    That the middle east is in turmoil is terrible, and there's plenty of blame to go around. However I don't think it's fair to put too much of the burden on Obama's shoulders, because the factors that lead to today's problems are centuries in the making. I'm not sure what Obama could have done differently that would have resulted in appreciable less suffering.

    I don't think he could have stopped the rise of ISIS, and I don't think he should be blamed that idiots in the middle east are killing each other and innocent people. That's on them. The middle east is the way it is because of the combined choices of millions of people. I don't think he could have stopped civil war in Libya or Syria, and all we can do is speculate what alternate, delicate courses might have been tried. Don't get me wrong, I don't think he can be free of all blame. I think he has underestimated Putin for example with regard to the Ukraine crisis, but I believe that the decisions he's made on the whole have been the ones he thought were the best at the time given the available information, even if the choice was between the lesser of evils.

    It's all very well and good to commentate from the safety of not having to make these choices, but I would love to see how I and everyone else in this thread would do if we could magically transport ourselves into Obama's shoes just after he was sworn into office (of course, with our knowledge of subsequent events erased so we had a level playing field). Which of us would leave a better world? Which of us would try to do good and inadvertently cause a global crisis? Which of us would go mad with power and become a force of evil? Which of us would be so incompetent we were impeached?

    Of course, we'll never know. To me, it's an interesting thought experiment.

    Is Obama a great man? I think he's a great mind who couldn't overcome the obstacles placed in his way by the government he led, and found himself in an impossible geopolitical situation not of his own making.
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  • MotorhateMotorhate Frets: 238
    Cirrus said:
    I think it's interesting that deciding how good or bad Obama is can't be rationalised without somehow judging him, rightly or wrongly, for the state of the middle east.

    Trying to take in his impact on the world as a whole turns into a massively complicated discussion full of ifs, buts, theories and conjecture about massive geopolitical issues... seems to me it becomes impossible, and it's not fair on anyone to say middle east = bad means Obama = bad.

    I think repeating the same mistakes the Bush administration made on the perils of advocating regime change are damning. He could have refused to call for the Arab Spring in Egypt and Libya and then stupidly (and I mean massively stupid) advocating the overthrow of an elected government in the Ukraine (which was bound to rile Russia)

    https://www.rt.com/op-edge/228379-obama-power-transition-ukraine/

    There was no need to get involved in any of the above and I struggle with the outpouring of the "he was a principled man with a good heart" claptrap that's being spouted.

    I'm no advocate of Trump by any means and no doubt he'll make the same mistakes too which I will call him out on too, but this love affair with Obama as a man of peace etc. Please!
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  • You guys totally come across like this:



    Now all due respect Obama was a class act Frank, a class act, excellent leader of the free world who brought affordable healthcare to millions in dire need. ...but if he were to come down my local and start making thinly veiled threats about how long it would take to establish trade deal should the UK trigger article 50 and leave the European Union then I'd say OI, OBAMA!  NOOOOOOO!
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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 71960
    edited January 2017
    Cirrus said:

    That the middle east is in turmoil is terrible, and there's plenty of blame to go around. However I don't think it's fair to put too much of the burden on Obama's shoulders, because the factors that lead to today's problems are centuries in the making. I'm not sure what Obama could have done differently that would have resulted in appreciable less suffering.
    Not interfered in Libya.
    Not supported regime change in Egypt - twice, when their imposed democracy didn't give the result they wanted the first time.
    Not encouraged the rebellion in Syria.
    Withdrawn more completely and quickly from Iraq and Afghanistan.
    Put pressure on Saudi Arabia to stop indiscriminate bombing in Yemen.
    Put pressure on Israel to stop building settlements in the West Bank.

    Certainly it's not *only* his fault, but those are things the Obama administration could and should have done differently which would at worst have not made things as bad as they are now.


    Cirrus said:

    I think it's interesting that deciding how good or bad Obama is can't be rationalised without somehow judging him, rightly or wrongly, for the state of the middle east.
    Because that is where American interference has done the most harm, and they seem to have a blind spot about why. And the underlying reason is oil (and gas), as we all know.

    The other bad thing he did globally was to increase tension in Eastern Europe, leading to the Russian invasion of Ukraine. That also caused completely unnecessary suffering.

    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone." - Walt Kowalski

    "Just because I don't care, doesn't mean I don't understand." - Homer Simpson

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  • MotorhateMotorhate Frets: 238
    ICBM said:
    Not interfered in Libya.
    Not supported regime change in Egypt - twice, when their imposed democracy didn't give the result they wanted the first time.
    Not encouraged the rebellion in Syria.
    Withdrawn more completely and quickly from Iraq and Afghanistan.
    Put pressure on Saudi Arabia to stop indiscriminate bombing in Yemen.
    Put pressure on Israel to stop building settlements in the West Bank.

    Certainly it's not *only* his fault, but those are things the Obama administration could and should have done differently which would at worst have not made things as bad as they are now.
    ... and would have cemented his legacy as a true advocate of peace and perhaps the greatest US president in living memory at least.
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  • FretwiredFretwired Frets: 24601
    ICBM said:
    Cirrus said:

    That the middle east is in turmoil is terrible, and there's plenty of blame to go around. However I don't think it's fair to put too much of the burden on Obama's shoulders, because the factors that lead to today's problems are centuries in the making. I'm not sure what Obama could have done differently that would have resulted in appreciable less suffering.
    Not interfered in Libya.
    Not supported regime change in Egypt - twice, when their imposed democracy didn't give the result they wanted the first time.
    Not encouraged the rebellion in Syria.
    Withdrawn more completely and quickly from Iraq and Afghanistan.
    Put pressure on Saudi Arabia to stop indiscriminate bombing in Yemen.
    Put pressure on Israel to stop building settlements in the West Bank.

    Certainly it's not *only* his fault, but those are things the Obama administration could and should have done differently which would at worst have not made things as bad as they are now.
    Hindsight is a wonderful thing .. ;-)

    Remember, it's easier to criticise than create!
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  • FretwiredFretwired Frets: 24601
    ICBM said:
    Cirrus said:

    That the middle east is in turmoil is terrible, and there's plenty of blame to go around. However I don't think it's fair to put too much of the burden on Obama's shoulders, because the factors that lead to today's problems are centuries in the making. I'm not sure what Obama could have done differently that would have resulted in appreciable less suffering.
    Not interfered in Libya.
    Not supported regime change in Egypt - twice, when their imposed democracy didn't give the result they wanted the first time.
    Not encouraged the rebellion in Syria.
    Withdrawn more completely and quickly from Iraq and Afghanistan.
    Put pressure on Saudi Arabia to stop indiscriminate bombing in Yemen.
    Put pressure on Israel to stop building settlements in the West Bank.

    Certainly it's not *only* his fault, but those are things the Obama administration could and should have done differently which would at worst have not made things as bad as they are now.
    Hindsight is a wonderful thing .. ;-)

    Remember, it's easier to criticise than create!
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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 71960
    Fretwired said:

    Hindsight is a wonderful thing .. ;-)
    Hindsight? Many of us spoke against all those mistakes at the time - I'm quite sure I'm on record here at least, and I'm certainly not alone.

    You don't need any kind of hindsight to know that those things were going to cause trouble. The West has a track record of it, going back centuries - even in modern times, at least to the 1950s. There isn't one single Western intervention in the Middle East which has ever done anything other than make existing problems worse or cause new ones - the only partial success was the liberation of Kuwait, but even that was bungled because it wasn't followed through properly.

    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone." - Walt Kowalski

    "Just because I don't care, doesn't mean I don't understand." - Homer Simpson

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  • MotorhateMotorhate Frets: 238
    He only had to look at how Iraq had ended up to think that interfering in Syria was a bad idea and that regime change has to come from within the country at the will of the people.
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  • HeartfeltdawnHeartfeltdawn Frets: 22096
    edited January 2017
    Motorhate said:
    Gold star for pointing out that Farage resigned as leader of UKIP (who weren't involved in the "Leave" campaign) four days after the referendum. Smirk all you like. I feel totally humiliated and stupid now.

    Farage is an MEP yes. Well done for spotting that. I’d wager nobody in the USA had ever heard of him before Trump brought him over so he’s hardly in a position to influence the US electorate. Obama did not simply "give an opinion". He stated that the FACT that “UK would be at the back of the queue if they voted for Brexit”. Basically blackmailing the UK electorate. If that isn’t influencing a vote then I don’t know what is.



    You originally claimed that Farage was not leader of UKIP during the referendum. 

    "I’d wager nobody in the USA had ever heard of him before Trump brought him over so he’s hardly in a position to influence the US electorate."

    You then make a bizarre wager. The simplest way is through the medium of video. We can have a two year old video from Fox News...



    ...or a two year old video from MSNBC...



    or going back to 2010. 



    So the assertion that nobody had heard of Farage in the US is clearly erroneous and I will take the wager from you.

    Regarding Obama... let us analyse what he actually said

    "“They are voicing an opinion about what the United States is going to do, I figured you might want to hear from the president of the United States what I think the United States is going to do.

    “And on that matter, for example, I think it’s fair to say that maybe some point down the line there might be a UK-US trade agreement, but it’s not going to happen any time soon because our focus is in negotiating with a big bloc, the European Union, to get a trade agreement done”.

    He added: “The UK is going to be in the back of the queue.”

    He made it clear what his focus was on. A big bloc. The EU. Not the UK. That his focus was on a big bloc is his right and that any US-UK agreement would be at the back of the queue and wouldn't be pushed to the front as certain Brexiters claimed. That you believe this to be blackmail is whimsical.

    So Obama comes out and makes a statement as President as is his right. That you don't see any difference between that and Farage endorsing Trump at a political rally in the US after complaining about foreigners involved in a British referendum is even more whimsical. But I'll settle at accepting the wager payout and request you donate it to Battersea Dogs and Cats Home BECAUSE I LIKE PUPPIES. 





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  • HeartfeltdawnHeartfeltdawn Frets: 22096
    edited January 2017
    And yes the caps were intentional. Who doesn't like puppies? 



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