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New Blackstar HT MK2 Amps

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  • bloodandtearsbloodandtears Frets: 1645
    edited October 2017
    ecc83 said:
    ecc83 said:
    The HT-5 and its derivatives is a rather different beast (and unique until Bellringers stole it!) and not in the 'mainstream' of the Venue range.
    What's the story here??


    Do you mean the Behringer story? If so they just copied the cosmetics pretty verbatim and from the claims made, much of the circuitry. The amps were not supposed to come to this country (where B's could 'ave 'um!) but I think a few have. Only the giant MVFP companies can fight such things worldwide.

    If you mean the difference twixt the Five and everything else? Well, 12BH7 for starters! It has been said by others and it is largely true that the Five is an HT pedal with a MOSFET PI an a valve OP stage but that is slightly unfair IMHO. Before HT5 V low power guitar amps tended to be single ended and very basic. One VC, one Tone pot. Single speaker Z, no loop, no headphone out and generally poor performance.

    Apart from its low, clean power the amp is pretty much everything you need in a gigging and especially recording amplifier (unless you are ICBM!)  Gigging?? Yes! Into a decent 100dB/W speaker it can hold its own in a small venue with a vegan drummer.

    The Venues, HT-20 and up are more convention designs. Op amps yes but valve stages where it matters and they were designed by a different chap, Cliff Brown who has gone on to produce his own designs and very good they are too!

    Dave.

    Cripes.. The Bugera G5 INFINIUM looks "familiar"..  I always thought Bugera were a boutique amp....

    obviously missed this way back when....

    http://www.thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/45092/buggera-behringer-have-an-original-idea-not

    My trading feedback

    is it crazy how saying sentences backwards creates backwards sentences saying how crazy it is?

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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 71956
    ecc83 said:

    I would guess 90% of the buyers of Blackstar amps never compare them to another and many never gig!

    Take the HT-20. Just about loud enough for gigging but very well specified for home practice and recording. The newb will not know the speaker is bad (it annoys mum, gotta be good!) and the recordist will likely run emulation through monitors or cans.

    The seasoned player who wants a decent amp of modest power, size,cost and weight, maybe micc'ed up on stage will KNOW to fit a better speaker (or, more likely, have a gaggle of cabs to pump it through)

    Of course the top of range Artisans have Greenbacks and V30s but even there, parts of the world wanted V30 in the A15! Can't please all............

    I thought the exact opposite - they should have put Greenbacks in the A30 :).

    With respect, I don't think that's a very good attitude to new buyers - I saw too much of that when I worked in an old-fashioned general musical instrument shop which sold a lot of low-end guitar gear… 'it doesn't matter if it's crap, they don't know the difference'. They may not - yet. But when they do they will most likely never buy that brand again.

    I also think it's daft to force more experienced buyers to pay for a speaker they know they will replace immediately at even more outlay, even if it doesn't lose the sale in the first place. If they don't want to price the whole series higher, maybe they should offer a factory upgrade option (at a price, of course)?

    But since I'm always Mr. Grumpy, on a positive note at least they haven't moved to control panels to the top, as seems to be the unaccountably popular retro fashion now :), and the styling seems to have been improved overall - the new grille, knobs and more textured vinyl look classier.

    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone." - Walt Kowalski

    "Just because I don't care, doesn't mean I don't understand." - Homer Simpson

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  • TeetonetalTeetonetal Frets: 7801
    ecc83 said:
    A compulsory step after buying a ht combo is to chuck the speaker in a skip and fit a decent one,then get a quality compressor and you have improved things no end. I keep a ht20 combo in my garage, the rocket 50 was flung into a skip and replaced with a greenback. Sticking my diamond cpr1 compressor out front and it sounds pretty good, enjoy the ht40 and that was a great price.


    And THAT ^ is a point I thought to make but thought I had droned on to an amplitude!

    I would guess 90% of the buyers of Blackstar amps never compare them to another and many never gig!

    Take the HT-20. Just about loud enough for gigging but very well specified for home practice and recording. The newb will not know the speaker is bad (it annoys mum, gotta be good!) and the recordist will likely run emulation through monitors or cans.

    The seasoned player who wants a decent amp of modest power, size,cost and weight, maybe micc'ed up on stage will KNOW to fit a better speaker (or, more likely, have a gaggle of cabs to pump it through)

    Of course the top of range Artisans have Greenbacks and V30s but even there, parts of the world wanted V30 in the A15! Can't please all.............

    Dave.

    I would disagree, I think the HT20 and HT40 are exactly the amp that will get bought by people looking to gig in maybe a first band, want valve because valves are cool and blackstar has a ton of endorsements.

    They then get fatigued with the muffled sound they get, have bad thoughts on blackstar and don't buy it anymore.

    My point is more that the 70/80 sounds awful in it. Dark, Muffled, no punch and low sensitivity.
    But almost any other compatible celsestion or WGS speaker in it and something is improved. I'm amazed more companies don't go with a Celsetion V (not v30) as standard.
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  • cruxiformcruxiform Frets: 2533
    edited October 2017
    I have the HT40 Vintage Pro which has the V30 fitted. I've played through a standard HT40 and I can tell the difference. Mine is a lot clearer, especially on the clean channel. It still sounds 'dark' on the OD channel. Saying that, @jdbwales (who I bought it from) recommended using an Eminence Legend GB128, which he had used but I had a V30 handy so that's what went in. Wouldn't mind trying another speaker to make it sound brighter. Overall though, it's a great amp.
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  • ecc83 said:

    Not, I don't think to just make a bit more profit but mainly to keep an 'edge' on the competition pricewise. There are enough amp makers here who will surely tell you that the ratio of BOM spend to store cost is about 1:10!  Not that high for high value, low production amps of course but anyone who has been in serious manufacturing will I am sure agree.
    There's the rub. In the world of manufacturing if your factory gate cost is more than 10% of the retail price then, as a general rule, you are doing something wrong. With Veblen goods such as 'prestige' Swiss watches the difference in manufacturing cost versus retail is much, much higher.  So, an amp retailing at £500 probably cost lest than £50 to make, and 'upgrading' to a speaker that costs £10 more would not translate in an amp costing £510, but one costing £600.
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  • jpfampsjpfamps Frets: 2723
    ecc83 said:

    Not, I don't think to just make a bit more profit but mainly to keep an 'edge' on the competition pricewise. There are enough amp makers here who will surely tell you that the ratio of BOM spend to store cost is about 1:10!  Not that high for high value, low production amps of course but anyone who has been in serious manufacturing will I am sure agree.
    There's the rub. In the world of manufacturing if your factory gate cost is more than 10% of the retail price then, as a general rule, you are doing something wrong. With Veblen goods such as 'prestige' Swiss watches the difference in manufacturing cost versus retail is much, much higher.  So, an amp retailing at £500 probably cost lest than £50 to make, and 'upgrading' to a speaker that costs £10 more would not translate in an amp costing £510, but one costing £600.
    The mark ups in musical instrument retail are much lower than most other industries tolerate, eg fashion.

    The difference in cost between the speakers discussed here would be much less than £10 at OEM prices. I think the extra £10 was on the retail price.

    My main gripe with the HT40 was incredibly small size of the output transformer; it's smaller than the OT in the Orange Tiny Terror! It can't pass a clean 100Hz full power sine wave with obvious signs of saturation.
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  • Modulus_AmpsModulus_Amps Frets: 2569
    tFB Trader
    you can't put a great speaker in a cheap amp, then it would sound too good and no one would buy the expensive amps.......

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  • Three-ColourSunburstThree-ColourSunburst Frets: 1139
    edited October 2017
    jpfamps said:

    There's the rub. In the world of manufacturing if your factory gate cost is more than 10% of the retail price then, as a general rule, you are doing something wrong. With Veblen goods such as 'prestige' Swiss watches the difference in manufacturing cost versus retail is much, much higher.  So, an amp retailing at £500 probably cost lest than £50 to make, and 'upgrading' to a speaker that costs £10 more would not translate in an amp costing £510, but one costing £600.
    The mark ups in musical instrument retail are much lower than most other industries tolerate, eg fashion.

    Maybe, but all that means is that instead of running a 10:1 retail to manufacturing cost ratio, in the fashion trade the ratio is more like to be 100:1 or more. Just look at the reports of Nike getting clothing made for a few tens of cents which then retail for 40-50 Dollars.

     Companies don't even have to be in the business of selling sweatshop clothing to run a huge manufacturing cost to retail cost ratio. As I said, things like Rolex watches are classic examples of Veblen goods, where the value people put on them is determined by the price asked, which actually bears no relationship whatsoever to the manufacturing cost. The reality is that watches such as Rolex are entirely made on automated machines at a low cost, and for many cheaper brands 'Swiss Made' means little, with imported parts being used which are then assembled in Switzerland, hence earning both the 'Swiss made' label and a tasty margin. The name of the game is marketing, and it is pretty common these days for companies to spend more on marketing than actually manufacturing the goods they sell!

    I would be very surprised if the unit manufacturing cost of a mass-produced amp such as a Blackstar wasn't less than 10% of the retail price, especially given that most (all?) of then seem to be made in China. (Does anyone know if some are still made in Korea?)
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  • Modulus_AmpsModulus_Amps Frets: 2569
    tFB Trader
    jpfamps said:

    There's the rub. In the world of manufacturing if your factory gate cost is more than 10% of the retail price then, as a general rule, you are doing something wrong. With Veblen goods such as 'prestige' Swiss watches the difference in manufacturing cost versus retail is much, much higher.  So, an amp retailing at £500 probably cost lest than £50 to make, and 'upgrading' to a speaker that costs £10 more would not translate in an amp costing £510, but one costing £600.
    The mark ups in musical instrument retail are much lower than most other industries tolerate, eg fashion.

    Maybe, but all that means is that instead of running a 10:1 retail to manufacturing cost ratio, in the fashion trade the ratio is more like to be 100:1 or more. Just look at the reports of Nike getting clothing made for a few tens of cents which then retail for 40-50 Dollars.

     Companies don't even have to be in the business of selling sweatshop clothing to run a huge manufacturing cost to retail cost ratio. As I said, things like Rolex watches are classic examples of Veblen goods, where the value people put on them is determined by the price asked, which actually bears no relationship whatsoever to the manufacturing cost. The reality is that watches such as Rolex are entirely made on automated machines at a low cost, and for many cheaper brands 'Swiss Made' means little, with imported parts being used which are then assembled in Switzerland, hence earning both the 'Swiss made' label and a tasty margin. The name of the game is marketing, and it is pretty common these days for companies to spend more on marketing than actually manufacturing the goods they sell!

    I would be very surprised if the unit manufacturing cost of a mass-produced amp such as a Blackstar wasn't less than 10% of the retail price, especially given that most (all?) of then seem to be made in China. (Does anyone know if some are still made in Korea?)
    I don't think 10% manufacturing cost is likely in that end of the music industry, now talk about Friedmans etc and you may be closer....
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  • stickyfiddlestickyfiddle Frets: 26749
    jpfamps said:

    There's the rub. In the world of manufacturing if your factory gate cost is more than 10% of the retail price then, as a general rule, you are doing something wrong. With Veblen goods such as 'prestige' Swiss watches the difference in manufacturing cost versus retail is much, much higher.  So, an amp retailing at £500 probably cost lest than £50 to make, and 'upgrading' to a speaker that costs £10 more would not translate in an amp costing £510, but one costing £600.
    The mark ups in musical instrument retail are much lower than most other industries tolerate, eg fashion.

    Maybe, but all that means is that instead of running a 10:1 retail to manufacturing cost ratio, in the fashion trade the ratio is more like to be 100:1 or more. Just look at the reports of Nike getting clothing made for a few tens of cents which then retail for 40-50 Dollars.

     Companies don't even have to be in the business of selling sweatshop clothing to run a huge manufacturing cost to retail cost ratio. As I said, things like Rolex watches are classic examples of Veblen goods, where the value people put on them is determined by the price asked, which actually bears no relationship whatsoever to the manufacturing cost. The reality is that watches such as Rolex are entirely made on automated machines at a low cost, and for many cheaper brands 'Swiss Made' means little, with imported parts being used which are then assembled in Switzerland, hence earning both the 'Swiss made' label and a tasty margin. The name of the game is marketing, and it is pretty common these days for companies to spend more on marketing than actually manufacturing the goods they sell!

    I would be very surprised if the unit manufacturing cost of a mass-produced amp such as a Blackstar wasn't less than 10% of the retail price, especially given that most (all?) of then seem to be made in China. (Does anyone know if some are still made in Korea?)
    While you're right that most Swiss watches are valuable because of branding marketing and people's perception of those, they are far from being "entirely" made on machines. 


    The Assumptions - UAE party band for all your rock & soul desires
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  • jpfampsjpfamps Frets: 2723
    jpfamps said:

    There's the rub. In the world of manufacturing if your factory gate cost is more than 10% of the retail price then, as a general rule, you are doing something wrong. With Veblen goods such as 'prestige' Swiss watches the difference in manufacturing cost versus retail is much, much higher.  So, an amp retailing at £500 probably cost lest than £50 to make, and 'upgrading' to a speaker that costs £10 more would not translate in an amp costing £510, but one costing £600.
    The mark ups in musical instrument retail are much lower than most other industries tolerate, eg fashion.

    Maybe, but all that means is that instead of running a 10:1 retail to manufacturing cost ratio, in the fashion trade the ratio is more like to be 100:1 or more. Just look at the reports of Nike getting clothing made for a few tens of cents which then retail for 40-50 Dollars.

     Companies don't even have to be in the business of selling sweatshop clothing to run a huge manufacturing cost to retail cost ratio. As I said, things like Rolex watches are classic examples of Veblen goods, where the value people put on them is determined by the price asked, which actually bears no relationship whatsoever to the manufacturing cost. The reality is that watches such as Rolex are entirely made on automated machines at a low cost, and for many cheaper brands 'Swiss Made' means little, with imported parts being used which are then assembled in Switzerland, hence earning both the 'Swiss made' label and a tasty margin. The name of the game is marketing, and it is pretty common these days for companies to spend more on marketing than actually manufacturing the goods they sell!

    I would be very surprised if the unit manufacturing cost of a mass-produced amp such as a Blackstar wasn't less than 10% of the retail price, especially given that most (all?) of then seem to be made in China. (Does anyone know if some are still made in Korea?)

    From my knowledge of the economics of guitar amps made in China the ratio is much nearer to 5:1 cost to retail.

    Margins are pretty slim in musical instrument retail; there are simply too many companies competing in a pretty static market.
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  • Three-ColourSunburstThree-ColourSunburst Frets: 1139
    edited October 2017

    While you're right that most Swiss watches are valuable because of branding marketing and people's perception of those, they are far from being "entirely" made on machines.
    When it comes to actually making watch components I bet 100% of the parts even in a high-end brand like Rolex are 100% machine made. Apparently Rolex's plant at Bienne can turn out finished main plates at the rate of 100 a minute! Sure, QC and final assembly, such as fitting the movement into the case and the hands to the dial, are done by hand, but the whole process is light years away from the image of some some craftsman filing away at a tiny cog wheel - the image the marketing men like to sell.

    Some watches will have a lot more hand finishing such as Patek Philippe, but look at the joke pricing. It is also possible to buy a genuinely craftsman made Swiss watch, but most look appallingly garish and can cost a couple of million pounds!

    On the other hand, if you really want a clockwork watch why not get something like a Seiko 5 military at £60 or so? It will still tick and is still made from little cogs and springs!
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  • Danny1969Danny1969 Frets: 10357
    I doubt there's a big margin on Blackstar valve amps, purely because you can't mass produce it in the modern sense ... it's not all tape reel SM automated PCB from start to finish ... there's no machine can pick and wire a transformer or valve base on a chassis and valves these components aren't made anything like on the scale modern components are
    Then there's the shipping, valve amps are large and heavy compared to normal consumer objects. 
    www.2020studios.co.uk 
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  • jpfampsjpfamps Frets: 2723

    While you're right that most Swiss watches are valuable because of branding marketing and people's perception of those, they are far from being "entirely" made on machines.
    When it comes to actually making watch components I bet 100% of the parts even in a high-end brand like Rolex are 100% machine made. Apparently Rolex's plant at Bienne can turn out finished main plates at the rate of 100 a minute! Sure, QC and final assembly, such as fitting the movement into the case and the hands to the dial, are done by hand, but the whole process is light years away from the image of some some craftsman filing away at a tiny cog wheel - the image the marketing men like to sell.

    Some watches will have a lot more hand finishing such as Patek Philippe, but look at the joke pricing. It is also possible to buy a genuinely craftsman made Swiss watch, but most look appallingly garish and can cost a couple of million pounds!

    On the other hand, if you really want a clockwork watch why not get something like a Seiko 5 military at £60 or so? It will still tick and is still made from little cogs and springs!

    Out of interest, why would anyone want a watch with hand-made parts?

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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 71956
    jpfamps said:

    Out of interest, why would anyone want a watch with hand-made parts?
    Presumably from some odd romanticised vision of the world before the industrial revolution where everything was hand-made, ignoring the fact that everything we take for granted in our modern lives is the result of high-precision machine production.

    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone." - Walt Kowalski

    "Just because I don't care, doesn't mean I don't understand." - Homer Simpson

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  • NeilNeil Frets: 3594
    edited October 2017

    While you're right that most Swiss watches are valuable because of branding marketing and people's perception of those, they are far from being "entirely" made on machines.
    When it comes to actually making watch components I bet 100% of the parts even in a high-end brand like Rolex are 100% machine made. Apparently Rolex's plant at Bienne can turn out finished main plates at the rate of 100 a minute! Sure, QC and final assembly, such as fitting the movement into the case and the hands to the dial, are done by hand, but the whole process is light years away from the image of some some craftsman filing away at a tiny cog wheel - the image the marketing men like to sell.

    Some watches will have a lot more hand finishing such as Patek Philippe, but look at the joke pricing. It is also possible to buy a genuinely craftsman made Swiss watch, but most look appallingly garish and can cost a couple of million pounds!

    On the other hand, if you really want a clockwork watch why not get something like a Seiko 5 military at £60 or so? It will still tick and is still made from little cogs and springs!
    I don't think anyone assumes that craftsmen file away at a tiny cog. 

    Rolex manufacture is a lot more hands on than you make out. Probably worth a look at the factory visit by Hodinkee (towards the bottom of the page). 

    https://www.hodinkee.com/articles/inside-rolex


    Re the Seiko 5, I am a big fan of Seiko but to lump a 5 in with a Rolex because it has cogs and springs is like lumping a Ford Fiesta in with a Rolls Royce.  Same sort of bits.  

    Although I don't see how alluding to watchmaking has any bearing on amp manufacture TBH.  s

    Two very different industries. 


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  • ecc83ecc83 Frets: 1589

    Clearly there are differences of opinion as to where manufacturers cut production costs but generally it seems clear, cut them they must. The there is the point that even the 70/80 is not UNIVERSALLY hated! (tho' I haven't seen a good word yet for the Rocket except as an expedient for IC!)

    As we have drifted way OT with timepieces, can I come came slightly to an historical electronics matter? I 'lived through' the transistor era. Valves were king in radios etc  and then sstate components began to appear and all Silicon audio gear, radio grams, low end 'hi fi' was made. Along with this revolution came RF susceptibility . Living only a score of miles from both Ruby and Daventy I had weekly complaints of Home Service breakthough . Then bloody taxis got VHF AM radios!

    Nightmare but fixable with an R and a cap at the front end in most cases. When we talked to the makers about fitting such filters at the production stage..."Ooo! Too costly. Would make the kit POUNDS more expensive!"

    So, even a resistor and a cap' at probably no more than $1 per 100 would, in their view, make the kit un competitive. NOW of course we have legislation and EM testing. You have to FORCE the b'std! 'Market Forces' won't do it. They also screamed Stuck Pig but we got moulded mains plugs as well. (tho' I understand some importers try to dodge packing the right mains plug?  THAT will get worse if we ever DO leave the EU)

    Dave.


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  • I would keen to know if the cab were still made with particle board.
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  • darthed1981darthed1981 Frets: 11670
    Neil said:
    Re the Seiko 5, I am a big fan of Seiko but to lump a 5 in with a Rolex because it has cogs and springs is like lumping a Ford Fiesta in with a Rolls Royce.  Same sort of bits.  

    The Fiesta is much more useful and usable though?  I used to have one with a little camera in the back, you could parallel park in tiny little spaces, was great.  I'd literally never want a Rolls Royce, big stupid overpriced lumps of cars.

    I think watches came up, in another thread as well, raised by me, about the perception of quality with expensive guitar kit. 

    There is a thread going on at the minute where comments like "I don't think I could spend 10k on a guitar, though I can easily afford it" have been made (presumably typing while balancing a laptop on a prole) and it made me realise that just like mentioned in here, as well as being musical instruments, guitars are "veblen goods" - nobody needs this ridiculous high-end kit, not even a little bit.  Demand is created by the price itself allied with a perception of the product conferring elite status.
    We have to be so very careful, what we believe in...
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  • NeilNeil Frets: 3594
    Neil said:
    Re the Seiko 5, I am a big fan of Seiko but to lump a 5 in with a Rolex because it has cogs and springs is like lumping a Ford Fiesta in with a Rolls Royce.  Same sort of bits.  

    The Fiesta is much more useful and usable though?  I used to have one with a little camera in the back, you could parallel park in tiny little spaces, was great.  I'd literally never want a Rolls Royce, big stupid overpriced lumps of cars.

    I think watches came up, in another thread as well, raised by me, about the perception of quality with expensive guitar kit. 

    There is a thread going on at the minute where comments like "I don't think I could spend 10k on a guitar, though I can easily afford it" have been made (presumably typing while balancing a laptop on a prole) and it made me realise that just like mentioned in here, as well as being musical instruments, guitars are "veblen goods" - nobody needs this ridiculous high-end kit, not even a little bit.  Demand is created by the price itself allied with a perception of the product conferring elite status.
    Oh no, the old veblen goods debate! ;)

    My POV, people work hard and like a bit of luxury now and then, whether it be a Les Paul Custom, Rolex watch, an expensive amp or whatever takes their fancy. It's like, "I'm worth it".  :)

    Too many times these "veblen goods" debates end up in inverse snobbery or simply bitterness and jealously.

    People don't always want to lead a grey existence, they don't want to eat the cheapest food, drive the cheapest car and live in the cheapest house  and if a luxury purchase makes them feel good or is an ambition fulfilled good luck to them IMO. 


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