I want to play a song that is too hard for me

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I've been playing about 5 years or so, and the song I'm trying to play right now happens to be 'Fire and Ice' by Malmsteen. It's way above my station. I'm thinking strategically, how do I go about it?

Just keep bashing at it at lower and lower speeds? 

Find some intermediate songs? If so, how? (not for this one , but just generally for songs which are too hard, how can one reliably find songs with similar techniques but less difficulty?)


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  • CarpeDiemCarpeDiem Frets: 274
    I would stick at it. Play the more challenging parts slowly, but accurately, and speed up gradually over time. Also, spend more time on the parts that are hardest to play. It may take some time to play it all, so do it over an extended period of time and incorporate it as part of a varied learning/practice routine. Yngwie has spent years of dedicated effort to play at an advanced level, so it's not easy to replicate his playing.
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  • mike_lmike_l Frets: 5700
    Bite sized chunks and a little and often will get you there.
    Learn 3-4 bars at a time, and start with the hardest part (they'll take the longest to perfect), get the fingering and picking right at a slow speed (even down to 40BPM). The slowly build up the speed. You will hit plateaus, slow bit a it, say 5 BPM then next day try again at the faster speed. Do NOT let the speed be predominant, that will lead to sloppy playing.
    Remember to start and finish your practise with something you can play to speed, this starts and finishes you on a high. 

    Ringleader of the Cambridge cartel, pedal champ and king of the dirt boxes (down to 21) 

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  • Sometimes you can arrange simpler versions, depending what the song is, that's a good way to still play the song like the original but its more achievable.

    If you really do want to play it exactly like the original though its all muscle memory, repetition and getting the tempo.
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  • vizviz Frets: 10643
    edited August 2017
    Malmsteen is really surprisingly easy to play, either note-for-note, or using certain shortcuts and approximations - once you've got the style under your fingers. So just take it slowly, get the easy verse bits, then tackle the solos, focusing on the repetitive shapes. I wouldn't worry about accurate right hand to start with, because you can legato it in parts, it's just as good. 
    Roland said: Scales are primarily a tool for categorising knowledge, not a rule for what can or cannot be played.
    Supportact said: [my style is] probably more an accumulation of limitations and bad habits than a 'style'.
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  • bigjonbigjon Frets: 680
    For "Waves" by Guthrie Govan which is at 96 beats per minute I set the metronome on its lowest setting of 40bpm but made the clicks quavers so I was practising at 20bpm. Then I sped up the metronome by one notch 4 times per week for a month, so 42 44 46, 48 50 52 54, 56 58 60 63, 66 69 72 76. The next notch is 80 BPM which is double the starting speed, so I put the metronome back down to 40 with the clicks as crotchets this time. The final push for the last 16 BPM I spread over a whole month 84 88 92 96, I made it with the exception of 2 separate bars where the playing is impossibly fast, 80bpm was about my limit for those.
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  • ElxElx Frets: 412
    I've been playing about 5 years or so, and the song I'm trying to play right now happens to be 'Fire and Ice' by Malmsteen. It's way above my station. I'm thinking strategically, how do I go about it?

    Just keep bashing at it at lower and lower speeds? 

    Find some intermediate songs? If so, how? (not for this one , but just generally for songs which are too hard, how can one reliably find songs with similar techniques but less difficulty?)


    One of the more difficult songs by Yngwie, and one of my favourites. The main solo is very challenging...Good luck, I still can't do it, and I have been trying for some time :)
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  • vizviz Frets: 10643
    Elx said:
    I've been playing about 5 years or so, and the song I'm trying to play right now happens to be 'Fire and Ice' by Malmsteen. It's way above my station. I'm thinking strategically, how do I go about it?

    Just keep bashing at it at lower and lower speeds? 

    Find some intermediate songs? If so, how? (not for this one , but just generally for songs which are too hard, how can one reliably find songs with similar techniques but less difficulty?)


    One of the more difficult songs by Yngwie, and one of my favourites. The main solo is very challenging...Good luck, I still can't do it, and I have been trying for some time :)
    I love the solo on dragonfly from that album. It's so dragonfly-ish. 
    Roland said: Scales are primarily a tool for categorising knowledge, not a rule for what can or cannot be played.
    Supportact said: [my style is] probably more an accumulation of limitations and bad habits than a 'style'.
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  • BarneyBarney Frets: 614
    Off you are really keen on learning it i would just fire away..just do sections slow first and gradually pick up speed....so much you will learn from it 
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  • DLMDLM Frets: 2513
    edited September 2017

    Get a handle on Yngwie's picking technique by watching Troy Grady's Cracking the Code videos on YouTube. Yngwie's approach is very consistent. Maybe try Chris Brooks, too. He does "The Yng Way" method and is a great player, but I don't think he quite nails the Yng sound like some of the Japanese dudes.

    Despite my great admiration for @BigJon, Troy will tell you: playing slower and building up won't always get you where you wanna be. You need to identify the problems and work on them in great detail. Chunks of 3-4 bars as suggested by @mike_l could well be too much. You might need to focus on one string change for a bit to get it down. That might be half a beat that you need to loop, not even half a bar.

    Get the best transcriptions you can get hold of. There are some really crappy "official" Yngwie tabs about.

    Learn what you want to learn. Keeps you motivated.  If it's this song, learn this song. Learn the chord changes so you can busk a version you can sing along to. Learn the vocal melodies on the guitar.

    Oh, and check @RedRabbit's thread on his playing getting slower. There was great technique discussion in there.

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  • Having just listened to the song, there is no way on earth I'd even contemplate trying to learn that!  =)
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  • DLM said:

    Despite my great admiration for @BigJon, Troy will tell you: playing slower and building up won't always get you where you wanna be. You need to identify the problems and work on them in great detail.


    Very true, but If you are not familiar with the technique, I would advise training very slow at first to build your mechanical ability from the ground up, I just don't think your metronome should decide when to change gears.


    Concerning Yngwie's song, I had never heard it, so I gave it a listen, and it seems to me that you can really reduce the time it would take to learn it by playing a few exercises that are at the core of the solo sections., Here they are:

    - Yngwie's classic: choose a diatonic 3 note shape on a string (like 13, 15, 17 for instance). and play it in this fashion: 17, 13, 15, 17, 15, 13 and repeat. He does a lot of that.

    - Descending Vertical scale run: choose a string ( I think Yngwie does it a lot on the high E string). and run it down diatonically in this manner: 3 notes straight down, then slide your index to the next lower note, and from that position play 3 notes straight down again, then slide again and repeat.

    - Diatonic Swept arpeggio crisscross: Choose a key, (maybe the one Fire and Ice is written in ?) and play the Minor and Major arpeggios of the key, starting on the high E string and going down and up the arp, then sliding to either the next arpeggio* (If you're not familiar with which arp goes where in the key), or the one starting 2 notes higher, and then going back to the one you  skipped (that's the "crisscross" part. I recommend doing this with both 3 string and 5 string shapes.

    * The one that starts on the next higher or lower note, keeping in mind what key you're in :)

    If you incorporate those into your training routine, it will make it way easier to play the actual solo, the way I would learn it is by playing it slow and as a whole, (the solo) to complement the exercises I mentioned before that you did in isolation.

    I think of it like a sculpture or a painting, focusing on a specific part allows you to refine the detail, but taking a step back and looking at the work as a whole ensures that everything is in the right place and that the whole thing looks harmonious. It's the best way to do it in my opinion.

    Good luck and good training.

    Max

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  • vizviz Frets: 10643
    DLM said:

    Despite my great admiration for @BigJon, Troy will tell you: playing slower and building up won't always get you where you wanna be. You need to identify the problems and work on them in great detail.


    Very true, but If you are not familiar with the technique, I would advise training very slow at first to build your mechanical ability from the ground up, I just don't think your metronome should decide when to change gears.


    Concerning Yngwie's song, I had never heard it, so I gave it a listen, and it seems to me that you can really reduce the time it would take to learn it by playing a few exercises that are at the core of the solo sections., Here they are:

    - Yngwie's classic: choose a diatonic 3 note shape on a string (like 13, 15, 17 for instance). and play it in this fashion: 17, 13, 15, 17, 15, 13 and repeat. He does a lot of that.

    - Descending Vertical scale run: choose a string ( I think Yngwie does it a lot on the high E string). and run it down diatonically in this manner: 3 notes straight down, then slide your index to the next lower note, and from that position play 3 notes straight down again, then slide again and repeat.

    - Diatonic Swept arpeggio crisscross: Choose a key, (maybe the one Fire and Ice is written in ?) and play the Minor and Major arpeggios of the key, starting on the high E string and going down and up the arp, then sliding to either the next arpeggio* (If you're not familiar with which arp goes where in the key), or the one starting 2 notes higher, and then going back to the one you  skipped (that's the "crisscross" part. I recommend doing this with both 3 string and 5 string shapes.

    * The one that starts on the next higher or lower note, keeping in mind what key you're in :)

    If you incorporate those into your training routine, it will make it way easier to play the actual solo, the way I would learn it is by playing it slow and as a whole, (the solo) to complement the exercises I mentioned before that you did in isolation.

    I think of it like a sculpture or a painting, focusing on a specific part allows you to refine the detail, but taking a step back and looking at the work as a whole ensures that everything is in the right place and that the whole thing looks harmonious. It's the best way to do it in my opinion.

    Good luck and good training.

    Max

    This is a great answer and furthermore, once you've mastered these 3 rudiments, plus maybe the 4th one of throwing the guitar round the back of your neck, you'll basically be able to play any of Yngwie's solos. 
    Roland said: Scales are primarily a tool for categorising knowledge, not a rule for what can or cannot be played.
    Supportact said: [my style is] probably more an accumulation of limitations and bad habits than a 'style'.
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  • ElxElx Frets: 412
    viz said:
    DLM said:

    Despite my great admiration for @BigJon, Troy will tell you: playing slower and building up won't always get you where you wanna be. You need to identify the problems and work on them in great detail.


    Very true, but If you are not familiar with the technique, I would advise training very slow at first to build your mechanical ability from the ground up, I just don't think your metronome should decide when to change gears.


    Concerning Yngwie's song, I had never heard it, so I gave it a listen, and it seems to me that you can really reduce the time it would take to learn it by playing a few exercises that are at the core of the solo sections., Here they are:

    - Yngwie's classic: choose a diatonic 3 note shape on a string (like 13, 15, 17 for instance). and play it in this fashion: 17, 13, 15, 17, 15, 13 and repeat. He does a lot of that.

    - Descending Vertical scale run: choose a string ( I think Yngwie does it a lot on the high E string). and run it down diatonically in this manner: 3 notes straight down, then slide your index to the next lower note, and from that position play 3 notes straight down again, then slide again and repeat.

    - Diatonic Swept arpeggio crisscross: Choose a key, (maybe the one Fire and Ice is written in ?) and play the Minor and Major arpeggios of the key, starting on the high E string and going down and up the arp, then sliding to either the next arpeggio* (If you're not familiar with which arp goes where in the key), or the one starting 2 notes higher, and then going back to the one you  skipped (that's the "crisscross" part. I recommend doing this with both 3 string and 5 string shapes.

    * The one that starts on the next higher or lower note, keeping in mind what key you're in :)

    If you incorporate those into your training routine, it will make it way easier to play the actual solo, the way I would learn it is by playing it slow and as a whole, (the solo) to complement the exercises I mentioned before that you did in isolation.

    I think of it like a sculpture or a painting, focusing on a specific part allows you to refine the detail, but taking a step back and looking at the work as a whole ensures that everything is in the right place and that the whole thing looks harmonious. It's the best way to do it in my opinion.

    Good luck and good training.

    Max

    This is a great answer and furthermore, once you've mastered these 3 rudiments, plus maybe the 4th one of throwing the guitar round the back of your neck, you'll basically be able to play any of Yngwie's solos. 
    No he will not, and you know it :)
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  • ElxElx Frets: 412
    It's like saying learn one pentatonic shape and 2 simple blues licks and you will be able to play any of Clapton's solos :)
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  • aord43aord43 Frets: 287
    Elx said:
    It's like saying learn one pentatonic shape and 2 simple blues licks and you will be able to play any of Clapton's solos :)
    Hey please don't shatter my illusions!
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  • EricTheWearyEricTheWeary Frets: 16253
    viz said:
    DLM said:

    Despite my great admiration for @BigJon, Troy will tell you: playing slower and building up won't always get you where you wanna be. You need to identify the problems and work on them in great detail.


    Very true, but If you are not familiar with the technique, I would advise training very slow at first to build your mechanical ability from the ground up, I just don't think your metronome should decide when to change gears.


    Concerning Yngwie's song, I had never heard it, so I gave it a listen, and it seems to me that you can really reduce the time it would take to learn it by playing a few exercises that are at the core of the solo sections., Here they are:

    - Yngwie's classic: choose a diatonic 3 note shape on a string (like 13, 15, 17 for instance). and play it in this fashion: 17, 13, 15, 17, 15, 13 and repeat. He does a lot of that.

    - Descending Vertical scale run: choose a string ( I think Yngwie does it a lot on the high E string). and run it down diatonically in this manner: 3 notes straight down, then slide your index to the next lower note, and from that position play 3 notes straight down again, then slide again and repeat.

    - Diatonic Swept arpeggio crisscross: Choose a key, (maybe the one Fire and Ice is written in ?) and play the Minor and Major arpeggios of the key, starting on the high E string and going down and up the arp, then sliding to either the next arpeggio* (If you're not familiar with which arp goes where in the key), or the one starting 2 notes higher, and then going back to the one you  skipped (that's the "crisscross" part. I recommend doing this with both 3 string and 5 string shapes.

    * The one that starts on the next higher or lower note, keeping in mind what key you're in :)

    If you incorporate those into your training routine, it will make it way easier to play the actual solo, the way I would learn it is by playing it slow and as a whole, (the solo) to complement the exercises I mentioned before that you did in isolation.

    I think of it like a sculpture or a painting, focusing on a specific part allows you to refine the detail, but taking a step back and looking at the work as a whole ensures that everything is in the right place and that the whole thing looks harmonious. It's the best way to do it in my opinion.

    Good luck and good training.

    Max

    This is a great answer and furthermore, once you've mastered these 3 rudiments, plus maybe the 4th one of throwing the guitar round the back of your neck, you'll basically be able to play any of Yngwie's solos. 

    Have we missed poodle perms, owning Ferraris and the ability to shout abuse at the stage crew whilst simultaneously playing neo- classical solos? He is quite an angry man, I suspect it's caused by the tightness of his leather trousers. 

    Tipton is a small fishing village in the borough of Sandwell. 
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  • DLMDLM Frets: 2513
    DLM said:

    Despite my great admiration for @BigJon, Troy will tell you: playing slower and building up won't always get you where you wanna be. You need to identify the problems and work on them in great detail.

    Very true, but If you are not familiar with the technique, I would advise training very slow at first to build your mechanical ability from the ground up, I just don't think your metronome should decide when to change gears.

    @AxeInsight When learning anything new, one is going to have to start super slow to avoid "baking in" mistakes. Dave Kilminster would say: Start much slower than you think you need to start. *Much* slower.

    But the metronome doesn't decide when to change gears. You use the metronome to help yourself move up through the gears.

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  • cruxiformcruxiform Frets: 2533
    edited October 2017
    Funnily enough, I'm currently learning Hiroshima Mon Amour from when he was in Alcatrazz. I use Riffstation as I can save a slowed down version of the song as a .wav to my computer to play along to. I'm currently at 1/2 speed and can nail it every time so just about at the point to speed it up a little. I started at 1/4 speed and learnt it by ear which I prefer.

    Anyway the thing I wanted to mention is Yngwie's vibrato. When you slow down one of his solos you realise he does it a lot more than you hear at normal speed and it's a wide vibrato too. The scalloped neck helps with that I guess.
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  • DLMDLM Frets: 2513
    Plus the light strings and being tuned down to Eb, usually! :sunglasses:
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  • vizviz Frets: 10643
    Elx said:
    viz said:
    DLM said:

    Despite my great admiration for @BigJon, Troy will tell you: playing slower and building up won't always get you where you wanna be. You need to identify the problems and work on them in great detail.


    Very true, but If you are not familiar with the technique, I would advise training very slow at first to build your mechanical ability from the ground up, I just don't think your metronome should decide when to change gears.


    Concerning Yngwie's song, I had never heard it, so I gave it a listen, and it seems to me that you can really reduce the time it would take to learn it by playing a few exercises that are at the core of the solo sections., Here they are:

    - Yngwie's classic: choose a diatonic 3 note shape on a string (like 13, 15, 17 for instance). and play it in this fashion: 17, 13, 15, 17, 15, 13 and repeat. He does a lot of that.

    - Descending Vertical scale run: choose a string ( I think Yngwie does it a lot on the high E string). and run it down diatonically in this manner: 3 notes straight down, then slide your index to the next lower note, and from that position play 3 notes straight down again, then slide again and repeat.

    - Diatonic Swept arpeggio crisscross: Choose a key, (maybe the one Fire and Ice is written in ?) and play the Minor and Major arpeggios of the key, starting on the high E string and going down and up the arp, then sliding to either the next arpeggio* (If you're not familiar with which arp goes where in the key), or the one starting 2 notes higher, and then going back to the one you  skipped (that's the "crisscross" part. I recommend doing this with both 3 string and 5 string shapes.

    * The one that starts on the next higher or lower note, keeping in mind what key you're in :)

    If you incorporate those into your training routine, it will make it way easier to play the actual solo, the way I would learn it is by playing it slow and as a whole, (the solo) to complement the exercises I mentioned before that you did in isolation.

    I think of it like a sculpture or a painting, focusing on a specific part allows you to refine the detail, but taking a step back and looking at the work as a whole ensures that everything is in the right place and that the whole thing looks harmonious. It's the best way to do it in my opinion.

    Good luck and good training.

    Max

    This is a great answer and furthermore, once you've mastered these 3 rudiments, plus maybe the 4th one of throwing the guitar round the back of your neck, you'll basically be able to play any of Yngwie's solos. 
    No he will not, and you know it :)
    Ha ha, ok, well, he'll be able to play at least 3 lines in every of Yngwie's solos, that much is certain!
    Roland said: Scales are primarily a tool for categorising knowledge, not a rule for what can or cannot be played.
    Supportact said: [my style is] probably more an accumulation of limitations and bad habits than a 'style'.
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