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Acoustics get expensive very quickly.......

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  • ToneControlToneControl Frets: 11789
    I'm more amazed how much people pay for bicycles
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  • Whether I play my £150 Tanglewood or one of the more expensive acoustics in my local guitar shop.....the outcome is basically the same. I sound crap on both....so I'll stick with my Tangly.
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  • AliGorieAliGorie Frets: 308
    99 % of the guitar (steel string / flat topped) music that has meant anything to me over 55 yrs of listening has been played on sub 3k instruments ( at current prices). So the potential for great music /art is in these mainly factory / small shop instruments.
    Anything over - say 5k is for other reasons and nothing to do with making great music.
    And yeah, the Darrel Scott masterfully thrashing away on a for 'fingerstyle' guitar to many overtones holy grail box is sooooo funny - evidencing that you simply need good technique to control those Sobell excesses.

         

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  • For my money .. still can't beat Larrivee. Honestly think they're the best bang for buck out there. Tried some £8k (!!) guitars that I thought were "meh!" 
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  • ThorpyFXThorpyFX Frets: 6090
    tFB Trader
    For my money .. still can't beat Larrivee. Honestly think they're the best bang for buck out there. Tried some £8k (!!) guitars that I thought were "meh!" 
    I have a very wonderful Faith Guitar and that is £800- love it to bits and for me its the ideal balance of quality and sound. i still lust for a brook though
    Adrian Thorpe MBE | Owner of ThorpyFx Ltd | Email: thorpy@thorpyfx.com | Twitter: @ThorpyFx | Facebook: ThorpyFx Ltd | Website: www.thorpyfx.com
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  • WhitecatWhitecat Frets: 5378
    Be thankful you’re not a cellist. 
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  • StrangefanStrangefan Frets: 5845
    The fact for me is you don't need a 5k guitar to sound good, literally no guitar player I am into uses a boutique acoustic they all use either Martin gibson or guild, (and some takamine) and those sound as iconic as the songs played on them,  for me technique and your own skill when it comes to your fingers has just as big a part to play, 
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  • The fact for me is you don't need a 5k guitar to sound good, literally no guitar player I am into uses a boutique acoustic they all use either Martin gibson or guild, (and some takamine) and those sound as iconic as the songs played on them,  for me technique and your own skill when it comes to your fingers has just as big a part to play, 
    Martins aren't cheap though, e.g. a new OM28 is just under £3k.  
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  • AliGorieAliGorie Frets: 308

    Martins aren't cheap though, e.g. a new OM28 is just under £3k.  
    for 'Pro' musicians ?
    I have a relation in a successful 'functions' band - corporate bashes and so on, he hasn't personally paid for any of his kit for yrs and he's got some of the best (keyboards etc) on the market.
    So ya get a lot of that, with some 'guitarists' it's part of their brand ID, though only of interest to a niche audience.
    various things at play here including the amateur player who has considerable expendable income.
    But it is good for 'luthiers' as they get to build exclusive instruments in the best materials - some of them introducing 'must have / be seen with' features - I think their having a  bit of a laugh really, what can we encourage them to 'desire'.
     
     

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  • For my money .. still can't beat Larrivee. Honestly think they're the best bang for buck out there. Tried some £8k (!!) guitars that I thought were "meh!" 
    As someone who until quite recently had three Larrivees, totally agree that they are great VFM and great guitars in their own right.  I also own two NK Forster acoustics and a McIlroy and believe me there is a difference between them and the Larrys; the Forsters in particular.
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  • That's great @ThorpyFX ;; - I bet it thrashes more expensive guitars.

    I agree with the point about expensive guitars not being needed/used on famous records.. I think the same about amps and effects and even mixing/mastering... 

    @AuldReekie is the Larry the "worst" of that bunch?
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  •  

    @AuldReekie is the Larry the "worst" of that bunch?
    I suppose that it is, but I'd prefer to word it as the others being better guitars - which they should be given the price differential.  I think my McIlRoys is about £3K new, Forsters are considerably more expensive.  My 12 fret Model C would be about £5K and my model G in Brazillian and bearclaw spruce, would, I reckon be between £7-8K and my SC Tony Rice about £4K.  so comparing the Larrivee to these is unfair.  What I will say is that at comparable price point, I'd have a Larrivee anyday over a Taylor.  And I'm not the only person who likes Larrys.  When I put my Larrivee C09 up for sale in "Strung Out" in Glasgow, Graeme Duffin of "Wet Wet Wet" bought it. I've had my OM9 longer than any off my other acoustics and I doubt that I will ever sell it.
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  • LewyLewy Frets: 4126
    I think the thing with a lot of these guitars up above the £5k bracket is that it's not just about build, it's about design & build working together, whereas up to that point it's mostly about build - better woods, better care in fit and finish but basically old designs in terms of bracing and materials, with perhaps some minor tweaks.

    But then when you get up into the acoustic price fuckoffosphere (ignoring guitars which are expensive because of crazy adornments etc) you find innovative bracing patterns, body shapes, different scientific approaches to rigidity, double sides etc, in the pursuit of delivering things that traditionally patterned guitars don't. Maybe that's the tone, characteristics of the note attack and sustain, or consistency of timbre from the bottom to the very top of the neck across all strings etc etc. And then the build is about using whatever techniques and materials are needed to bring the design to life without compromise. It's not hard to see how the $$$ rack up really.

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  • For my money .. still can't beat Larrivee. Honestly think they're the best bang for buck out there. Tried some £8k (!!) guitars that I thought were "meh!" 
    @thomasross20 I love my L'Arrivee L-01 (it's a Canadian-built special run of the L-03 they did for Japan, almost no decoration and no binding). 

    However, you might also like Furch/Stonebridge when looking for VFM, playability and a decent sound. 
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  • FloofFloof Frets: 17
    ThorpyFX said:
    I'll have to read this thread. I do wonder just how much better a £kkkk acoustic is compared to a £1k model, for example. 
    Me too..... however having played a brook torridge at £2500 I’d struggle to exploit the benefit myself as I just don’t have the subtlety and nuanced ability. 
    Nor will you develop it on a Encore @ThorpyFX   ;-) 
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  • ThorpyFXThorpyFX Frets: 6090
    tFB Trader
    Floof said:
    ThorpyFX said:
    I'll have to read this thread. I do wonder just how much better a £kkkk acoustic is compared to a £1k model, for example. 
    Me too..... however having played a brook torridge at £2500 I’d struggle to exploit the benefit myself as I just don’t have the subtlety and nuanced ability. 
    Nor will you develop it on a Encore @ThorpyFX   ;-) 
    i do not need tempting any more!!!! although a larrivee would be nice.... especially as they have been to space
    Adrian Thorpe MBE | Owner of ThorpyFx Ltd | Email: thorpy@thorpyfx.com | Twitter: @ThorpyFx | Facebook: ThorpyFx Ltd | Website: www.thorpyfx.com
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  • @ThorpyFX ; there's a used OM02 at coda for £650!
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  • nkforsternkforster Frets: 29
    edited October 2017
    The price of a guitar is based on two things - supply and demand.  A maker can only make so many instruments in a year. That's the supply bit. Now  demand - it is based on lots of things - tone, wood, workmanship, playability, but most of all  - the perception of others. 

    When I started working for Sobell in the late 80's a guitar from him was £880, or was it £820? I forget. Yes, the guitars got better as the years went by, but more importantly, the demand for his work increased. This allowed Stefan to steadily increase his prices.

    Price is the only tool a maker has to control demand. 

    Neither Sobell and Monteleone are young men anymore. Both have done well from instrument making and have made many fine instruments. Unless they have been foolish with the money they have earned, neither should be under any financial pressure nor feel the need to compete in the current market.  I imagine that both have reduced the supply of instruments compared to when they were younger.  If the demand stays the roughly the same, their prices will reflect this. 

    There often comes a point when a maker hikes their price up specifically to cut demand down.  If you're in your 60s or 70s or older, you've no debt and money in the bank, it makes sense to stop making so much stuff and just make a handful of instruments a year, and get paid well for them. Monteleone is a good example. I believe he charges around $45,000 for a mandolin. It's quite possible he doesn't get many or even any orders at this price, but even if he gets one a year, that's a nice reason for him to put an edge on his chisel. 

    Likewise, my prices have risen steadily since opening my own shop. Not by as much as I'd like, but then there are a lot more makers around than you could ever have imagined. But they've gone up nonetheless. Demand for my work has outstripped supply.  Ten years ago my Model C was about £3250. Now they are around £5500. 

    But if you look at the "fancy" guitar market in general, you'll see prices have gone down. I was talking with one of the main US "boutique guitar" dealers last year - he pointed out that the average price he sells a guitar for is exactly the same as it was ten years ago. $5000. So taking inflation into account, that's a price drop overall.  But then there are a lot more makers and more guitars available used than there ever has been. At the same time, those with the buying power - the "baby boomers" are quite literally dying out.  Yes, some younger players are buying handmade work, but they don't buy as many as the older generation or spend as much.  So it'll be interesting to see how the handmade guitar market changes in the next few years....

    Nigel
    www.nkforsterguitars.com
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  • :) :) Great post!

    Played some great guitars at @AuldReekie's tonight (and he is a great player - good alternative tuning work - proper acoustic player!). In terms of acoustics... was it the two Forster's near the window? The one on the right... was the best guitar in the room, in pee-brock tuning. Highly resonant. I forget the guitar that was in open-C (???) behind the door but that sounded great.. Dreadnought too big for me - best for strumming. And not a slight to any of the higher-end models but the Larry held it's own. When he played my own Larry, it still sounded like music to my ears. And I learned something.... unless my ear needs to develop, I do believe I prefer the sweet highs/mids of a mahogany guitar. I think mahogany is best for fingerstyle while warmer/bassier rosewood is best for strumming (the opposite of what most folk say).

    Fancier woods I've tried on other guitars... none made too big an impact on me. But when I picked me OM-02... and played another mahogany guitar with spruce top recently.. the sounds really resonated with me. I've yet to try cedar top (which I understand ages quicker, getting to a more developed sound quicker). And as stupid as I may come across for saying this, I never realised before that a guitar top will darken over time. It's almost a shame as I like the colour my OM-02 is right now! 

    I also realised recently that whilst I initially thought I'd prefer a cutaway in an acoustic... I've found I actually do not prefer that at all. I love the OM shape, full-body, 14 frets, and think I have a decent grip on the sort of woods I like (though I've not been to an acoustic super-store...).
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  • ThorpyFXThorpyFX Frets: 6090
    tFB Trader
    nkforster said:
    The price of a guitar is based on two things - supply and demand.  A maker can only make so many instruments in a year. That's the supply bit. Now  demand - it is based on lots of things - tone, wood, workmanship, playability, but most of all  - the perception of others. 

    When I started working for Sobell in the late 80's a guitar from him was £880, or was it £820? I forget. Yes, the guitars got better as the years went by, but more importantly, the demand for his work increased. This allowed Stefan to steadily increase his prices.

    Price is the only tool a maker has to control demand. 

    Neither Sobell and Monteleone are young men anymore. Both have done well from instrument making and have made many fine instruments. Unless they have been foolish with the money they have earned, neither should be under any financial pressure nor feel the need to compete in the current market.  I imagine that both have reduced the supply of instruments compared to when they were younger.  If the demand stays the roughly the same, their prices will reflect this. 

    There often comes a point when a maker hikes their price up specifically to cut demand down.  If you're in your 60s or 70s or older, you've no debt and money in the bank, it makes sense to stop making so much stuff and just make a handful of instruments a year, and get paid well for them. Monteleone is a good example. I believe he charges around $45,000 for a mandolin. It's quite possible he doesn't get many or even any orders at this price, but even if he gets one a year, that's a nice reason for him to put an edge on his chisel. 

    Likewise, my prices have risen steadily since opening my own shop. Not by as much as I'd like, but then there are a lot more makers around than you could ever have imagined. But they've gone up nonetheless. Demand for my work has outstripped supply.  Ten years ago my Model C was about £3250. Now they are around £5500. 

    But if you look at the "fancy" guitar market in general, you'll see prices have gone down. I was talking with one of the main US "boutique guitar" dealers last year - he pointed out that the average price he sells a guitar for is exactly the same as it was ten years ago. $5000. So taking inflation into account, that's a price drop overall.  But then there are a lot more makers and more guitars available used than there ever has been. At the same time, those with the buying power - the "baby boomers" are quite literally dying out.  Yes, some younger players are buying handmade work, but they don't buy as many as the older generation or spend as much.  So it'll be interesting to see how the handmade guitar market changes in the next few years....

    Nigel
    www.nkforsterguitars.com
    Thanks for commenting, this is a real insight for me, it makes perfect sense that pricing is used as a tool to control the ebb and flow of orders. 
    Adrian Thorpe MBE | Owner of ThorpyFx Ltd | Email: thorpy@thorpyfx.com | Twitter: @ThorpyFx | Facebook: ThorpyFx Ltd | Website: www.thorpyfx.com
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