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Useless Soundmen

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longshinslongshins Frets: 246
ive lost count now of how many gigs I've done when the sound guys screw up a simple task of micing up a guitar cab and pushing a sound out of a PA. How do they get jobs? It amazes me... 
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  • merlinmerlin Frets: 6594
    Have you noticed that most sound guys are called Dave? 

    Except that it's not their name, it's their qualification; they all have a Diploma in Advanced Volume Engineering. 
    And most pass with a 2,1,2,1.....
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  • longshins said:
    ive lost count now of how many gigs I've done when the sound guys screw up a simple task of micing up a guitar cab and pushing a sound out of a PA. How do they get jobs? It amazes me... 

    As a sound guy, I've lost count now of how many gigs I've done when the guitarists screw up a simple task of getting a decent sound out of their rig, playing their songs without making mistakes, and not being too loud. How do they get gigs? It amazes me...
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  • longshins said:
    ive lost count now of how many gigs I've done when the sound guys screw up a simple task of micing up a guitar cab and pushing a sound out of a PA. How do they get jobs? It amazes me... 

    As a sound guy, I've lost count now of how many gigs I've done when the guitarists screw up a simple task of getting a decent sound out of their rig, playing their songs without making mistakes, and not being too loud. How do they get gigs? It amazes me...
    Is your name Dave? 
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  • So, the last example... ‘Dave’ has a 2x12 to deal with, blindly slaps a mic between the two speakers at nothing and wonders why it doesn’t sound right... another Dave thinks it’s because it needs phantom, or wouldn’t be easier just to take a DI?
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  • Seriously though, how do they get jobs? Are they volunteering? Some bs qualification from the local college? 
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  • In my experience, they don't actually get paid much/anything. Most engineers are either musicians or people who think the music business is cool. Some of them know what they're doing and some even have ears, but it's the exception rather than the rule. :)

    R.
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  • Is there a standardised approach to stage box numbering? 1 is kick, 2 and 3 are snare top and bottom etc? It seems to be where most of the confusion happens.
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  • longshins said:
    Is there a standardised approach to stage box numbering? 1 is kick, 2 and 3 are snare top and bottom etc? It seems to be where most of the confusion happens.
    There are no hard and fast rules. The important thing is to label everything properly. These days, everyone uses digital mixers and you can type in the channel labels.

    R.
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  • drwiddlydrwiddly Frets: 911
    Amazing how many sound guys insist on micing your cab when you're using a Kemper or Axe FX, despite being told that a DI is easier and will probably sound better.

    I managed to convince one of our regular soundmen to take a DI from my Kemper a couple of years ago. There was much muttering but he agreed. After the gig I asked him what he thought. "Sounded great, no feedback, brilliant!" was the response. He just leaves an xlr cable for me to plug in now ;)
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  • I never understand that approach. I don't do much live sound these days. but I always used to ask the band what they wanted, and only did my own thing if they had no preference or were inexperienced.

    R.
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  • drwiddlydrwiddly Frets: 911
    You're in the minority in my experience @robinbowes. I think a lot of guys who've been doing it for a while, become resistant to change until they see and hear the benefits for themselves. Same as many guitarists :)
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  • Danny1969Danny1969 Frets: 10356
    There's a lot of guys working live sound who drifted into it after working as roadie, then technical assistant, then had to do the sound when the FOH guy didn't turn up one night etc. There are also guys who have done uni courses in music production and guys who have privately trained. Can't really tar everyone with the same brush, like all walks of life some FOH guys are great some just can't be bothered. 

    I'm a partner in a company (2020 studios) that does a lot of live sound, even when you own the PA and are effectively the boss it's still not a well paid profession. The hours can be brutal, in summer festival season it's not unusual to work 18 hour days from load in morning to load out in the small hours ....Some bands are a joy to mix, some not so much ..... you do your best but some bands (people) really don't help themselves. 

    One thing I've learned from mixing people \ bands is the better they are the less help they need from the FOH engineer. Talented people confident in their own abilities just tend to get on with it .

    In terms of layout routing layout  I always go Drums  - gap - bass - gap -guitars - gap - keys - brass - weird shit - vocals ... with the gaps being there when a band suddenly has 4 guitars or double keyboards for example  .... on the actual desk though you make sure the things you need to access the most like vocals, guitars, brass are on the same layer ... things like drums can be on another layer as you don't generally need to access them constantly

    Monitors and sends are just numbered left to right

    Generally you won't get feedback from a guitar mic so much engineers will just put a mic on the cab knowing it will pretty much sound fine 
    www.2020studios.co.uk 
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  • merlinmerlin Frets: 6594
    edited December 2017
    Sound guys and guitarists are pretty much like the rest of the Human Race. Some are lovely, intelligent, caring, thoughtful and some are arrogant, selfish. Some smell of gravy, some smell of Roses. 

    The number of crap sound guys I've met and worked with and the number of good ones correlates perfectly with the number of good dentists, builders, drivers etc etc etc. 

    We have so much of a vested interest in getting our sound right that we get hyper sensitive is all. 
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  • ESBlondeESBlonde Frets: 3576
    I think @Danny1969 sums up the situation nicely. Proficient and experienced musicians sound good before you turn on the PA and so there is no fight to make everything louder than everything. Working down the scale the novice wannabe rock stars with a line6 4x12 dialled up to 11 are hard work (but hey they look cool with long floppy hair and the latest trainers/vans/whatever etc.).

    The standard of 'engineer' is similar. Some are roadies that fell into the roll, some are great electronics guys but have no ears or don't function under pressure (getting a live mix without a soundcheck and not knowing the band/material is a skill and an art, few do it quickly and well and we all have an off day). Some are musicians that care about sound and tone but have little technical expertise and some are the best blend of all those things and nice guys to boot.

    In terms of fixed chanels the early days of multi track tape saw it as easy to overload the kick drum chanel so it was always Ch 1 and any leak into 2 didn't matter as that was snare. These early studio engineer found themselves on the road if they were involved with a succesful album/band. (we're talking 8, 12 and 16 Ch desks here). Vocals would be on the right of the recording desk as they were ofton the last tracks laid down. So the convention of drums on the left through to vocals on the right was sort of default without anyone ever setting it as a standard. Now decades later those old boys have retired and others have come along. Digital makes handling the surface a whole different thing so put what you need most right in front for easy access on the top layer and have the prerecorded backing track buried because you have it all dialed in anyway.


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  • Perhaps you should play better venues, you'll meet a better class of engineer. 
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  • wayneirie said:
    Perhaps you should play better venues, you'll meet a better class of engineer. 
    That’s not always true, especially if doing Theatre work.
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  • wayneiriewayneirie Frets: 419
    edited December 2017
    longshins said:
    wayneirie said:
    Perhaps you should play better venues, you'll meet a better class of engineer. 
    That’s not always true, especially if doing Theatre work.
    Take your own then if you're unhappy, you're happy enough to complain on the internet, are you unhappy enough to put your hand in your pocket?. Theatre sound is a different skillset to mixing live bands. Most of its cues and speech. in big theatre productions theres often a person to mix the play and another to mix the band. 
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  • longshinslongshins Frets: 246
    edited December 2017
    In defence of theatre stuff you really, really need to be going direct... i remember a bassist once had a speaker in a isolated box to sit on so he could ‘feel’ what he was playing. That was his excuse anyway...
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  • longshins said:
    Is there a standardised approach to stage box numbering? 1 is kick, 2 and 3 are snare top and bottom etc? It seems to be where most of the confusion happens.
    There are no hard and fast rules. The important thing is to label everything properly. These days, everyone uses digital mixers and you can type in the channel labels.

    R.
    In various band incarnations I find myself participating in, none of them has any digital pa gear.  I'm not seeing it at other people's gigs either.  Most of them are still on old Mackie or Yamaha stuff.
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  • uncledick said:

    In various band incarnations I find myself participating in, none of them has any digital pa gear.  I'm not seeing it at other people's gigs either.  Most of them are still on old Mackie or Yamaha stuff.

    @uncledick was very excited by the arrival of his state-of-the-art mixing desk:




     =) =) =)
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