Useless Soundmen

Danny1969 · December 2017

uncledick said:

robinbowes said:

longshins said:

Is there a standardised approach to stage box numbering? 1 is kick, 2 and 3 are snare top and bottom etc? It seems to be where most of the confusion happens.

There are no hard and fast rules. The important thing is to label everything properly. These days, everyone uses digital mixers and you can type in the channel labels.

R.

In various band incarnations I find myself participating in, none of them has any digital pa gear. I'm not seeing it at other people's gigs either. Most of them are still on old Mackie or Yamaha stuff.

I play in 4 bands and all of them are using digital desks, 2 on QU16's, one on Presonus and one on Mackie DL1608. Over the last 3 years I've seen a huge switch to digital, it's reached the price point where analog mixers with outboard don't make a lot of sense ..... plus with venues bitching about mixers being out front and running snakes (especially wedding venues ) iPad mix capability has become essential and that's impossible without digital
Locally with other bands the Mackie DL series and the Behringer Xair is popular, for £550 or so they are hard to beat

robinbowes · December 2017

I went for the Yamaha TF-Rack - totally happy with it so far.

R.

Bridgehouse · December 2017

Bass player turns up to gig:

"Here's the DI socket - stick yer XLR in there mate"

"Oh, cheers, yeah, cool"

End of story.

robinbowes · December 2017

Bridgehouse said:

Bass player turns up to gig:

"Here's the DI socket - stick yer XLR in there mate"

"Oh, cheers, yeah, cool"

Knowledgeable sound engineer uses isolating DI box on bass player to avoid known problems with some DI implementations.

End of story.

Bridgehouse · December 2017

robinbowes said:

Bridgehouse said:

Bass player turns up to gig:

"Here's the DI socket - stick yer XLR in there mate"

"Oh, cheers, yeah, cool"

Knowledgeable sound engineer uses isolating DI box on bass player to avoid known problems with some DI implementations.

End of story.

True. But from my point of view, I point at the DI socket and off he trots. What he chooses to do with it is up to him. I've always had a respectable sound.

robinbowes · December 2017

Bridgehouse said:
True. But from my point of view, I point at the DI socket and off he trots.

Yeah, bass is usually the easy bit, tbh, especially with amps that have decent balanced DI output.

I'd still use a DI box though, for unknown amps.

R.

Bridgehouse · December 2017

robinbowes said:

Bridgehouse said:
True. But from my point of view, I point at the DI socket and off he trots.

Yeah, bass is usually the easy bit, tbh, especially with amps that have decent balanced DI output.

I'd still use a DI box though, for unknown amps.

R.

Even easier if I show up with a Helix or a quality Preamp DI pedal

robinbowes · December 2017

Bridgehouse said:

Even easier if I show up with a Helix or a quality Preamp DI pedal

Sure, that sort of gear makes life a lot easier (I have an Helix myself), but I'd generally still prefer to use my own isolating DI boxes if I don't know the provenance of the equipment.

R.

Bridgehouse · December 2017

robinbowes said:

Bridgehouse said:

Even easier if I show up with a Helix or a quality Preamp DI pedal

Sure, that sort of gear makes life a lot easier (I have an Helix myself), but I'd generally still prefer to use my own isolating DI boxes if I don't know the provenance of the equipment.

R.

Sensible. But you are right, bass players are generally less hassle

robinbowes · December 2017

Bridgehouse said:

Sensible. But you are right, bass players are generally less hassle

...apart from always playing too loudly.

R.

Bridgehouse · December 2017

robinbowes said:

Bridgehouse said:

Sensible. But you are right, bass players are generally less hassle

...apart from always playing too loudly.

R.

You can't win them all...

maltingsaudio · December 2017

Channel numbering unless it’s your own gig with your own engineer is as Danny et al say drums bass guitars keys brass nose flutes then vocals working from channel 1 to whatever. This is expected norm and means if a visiting engineer rocks up to your desk at a festival/gig he has a fighting chance of winning quickly.

Thing about doing sound is, if it all goes swimmingly then the band were brilliant, if it goes badly it’s the sound engineers fault.

As to engineers do bear this in mind, if it’s a proper job and set up, the guy providing the PA has invested far more than any musician in his gear and as it’s his income so has a vested interest in getting it right but can only work with what he is presented with. The problem I see with the younger engineers just out of uni with degrees is they can only work with what they’ve been taught and aspire to, therefor if you don’t provide a digico desk and DPA mics they whinge, and think the gig is below their level.And if a cable goes down somewhere in the signal chain they are completely knackered! (Tip for evaluating any musician ask them to explain the signal chain)

ICBM · December 2017

Bridgehouse said:

robinbowes said:

Bridgehouse said:

Sensible. But you are right, bass players are generally less hassle

...apart from always playing too loudly.

R.

You can't win them all...

But having at least 500W behind you does give you a fighting chance.

The thing I find most baffling about some sound engineers - including many at big, professional venues - is that the mix is crap. Why? Anyone who has ever listened to recorded music instinctively knows what a good mix sounds like - basically one where you can hear everything and nothing is overpoweringly loud. So why do so many live mixes consist of overpoweringly boomy kick drum and bass, and inaudible muffled vocals? Sometimes with either harsh or muddy guitars thrown in for good measure.

robinbowes · December 2017

ICBM said:

The thing I find most baffling about some sound engineers - including many at big, professional venues - is that the mix is crap. Why? Anyone who has ever listened to recorded music instinctively knows what a good mix sounds like - basically one where you can hear everything and nothing is overpoweringly loud. So why do so many live mixes consist of overpoweringly boomy kick drum and bass, and inaudible muffled vocals? Sometimes with either harsh or muddy guitars thrown in for good measure.

Yes! This!

I understand that you don't always get a sound check, e.g at festivals, but on more than one occasion I've heard engineers sorting out the drum kit one piece at a time before getting a rough, overall mix. Half a song of kick drum! Bonkers!

R.

longshins · December 2017

robinbowes said:

ICBM said:

The thing I find most baffling about some sound engineers - including many at big, professional venues - is that the mix is crap. Why? Anyone who has ever listened to recorded music instinctively knows what a good mix sounds like - basically one where you can hear everything and nothing is overpoweringly loud. So why do so many live mixes consist of overpoweringly boomy kick drum and bass, and inaudible muffled vocals? Sometimes with either harsh or muddy guitars thrown in for good measure.

Yes! This!

I understand that you don't always get a sound check, e.g at festivals, but on more than one occasion I've heard engineers sorting out the drum kit one piece at a time before getting a rough, overall mix. Half a song of kick drum! Bonkers!

R.

Related matter, when you hear festival footage and it sounds poo are the broadcasters just taking a stereo bus out of the desk and hoping that’s good enough?

webrthomson · December 2017

ICBM said:

The thing I find most baffling about some sound engineers - including many at big, professional venues - is that the mix is crap. Why? Anyone who has ever listened to recorded music instinctively knows what a good mix sounds like - basically one where you can hear everything and nothing is overpoweringly loud. So why do so many live mixes consist of overpoweringly boomy kick drum and bass, and inaudible muffled vocals? Sometimes with either harsh or muddy guitars thrown in for good measure.

Can't disagree with this

The other one I don’t get it obsessively labouring over the mix at sound check in a vast empty room, completely discounting in the effect that a room full of people are going to have on the treble response of said room once the crown get in.

That and spending about 40 minutes on the kick drum and 10 seconds on the rest of the band

Danny1969 · December 2017

webrthomson said:

ICBM said:

The thing I find most baffling about some sound engineers - including many at big, professional venues - is that the mix is crap. Why? Anyone who has ever listened to recorded music instinctively knows what a good mix sounds like - basically one where you can hear everything and nothing is overpoweringly loud. So why do so many live mixes consist of overpoweringly boomy kick drum and bass, and inaudible muffled vocals? Sometimes with either harsh or muddy guitars thrown in for good measure.

Can't disagree with this

The other one I don’t get it obsessively labouring over the mix at sound check in a vast empty room, completely discounting in the effect that a room full of people are going to have on the treble response of said room once the crown get in.

That and spending about 40 minutes on the kick drum and 10 seconds on the rest of the band

I also notice a room full of people in Winter sounds different to a room full in summer due to the bulkier coats and such. As for obsessive kick drum disorder ! ..... well to many engineers their kick drum sound and punch is their badge of honour and they do literally devote too much time to it at the expense of (in my view) more important things like the vocals.

One thing people sometimes don't take into account though is most live mix's are a compromise. High frequencies lose their energy in air quicker than low frequencies ...that means sometimes you can't have too much treble half way down the field without killing the people at he front with an over bright harsh mix. The only way to overcome these physics problems is to use high steerable arrays but that can cost a lot in rigging, setup time and hire cost.

ESBlonde · December 2017

It should be remembered that hot and humid air effects sound greatly, modern digital controllers (expensive ones mainly) will respond to sensors placed about the venue and compensate for the changes. This helps with cold empty rooms and full hot steamy gigs, but good and experienced engineers instinctively compensate for full and empty venues at spound check.
It's not about the gear either, I saw the Eagles at the old Wembly stadium some years back. I can't remember the support act, some young artist on the same label getting exposure. But they let loose a youth opportunities lad for the support and it sounded awful, bassy, indistinct, painful etc. 30 mins later the Eagles took to the stage and it sounded like the album in mix and quality. OK they probably had a longer sound check with the headliner but the support singer was to tracks!

webrthomson · December 2017

Danny1969 said:

As for obsessive kick drum disorder ! ..... well to many engineers their kick drum sound and punch is their badge of honour and they do literally devote too much time to it at the expense of (in my view) more important things like the vocals.

I knew there had to be a reason for it and now I know

bbill335 · December 2017

ICBM said:

The thing I find most baffling about some sound engineers - including many at big, professional venues - is that the mix is crap. Why? Anyone who has ever listened to recorded music instinctively knows what a good mix sounds like - basically one where you can hear everything and nothing is overpoweringly loud. So why do so many live mixes consist of overpoweringly boomy kick drum and bass, and inaudible muffled vocals? Sometimes with either harsh or muddy guitars thrown in for good measure.

Most recent gig observation after sitting in on the soundcheck for a relatively successful (BBC 6music played their single a lot when it came out) guitar-based band: sound guy spends ages agonising over the kit sound, pestering the drummer to tune his tom - to which, the much less anal drummer replied with something to the effect of "it's a battered skin that's as tight as it's gonna go, it's fine". In his attempt to satisfy his boner for overwhelming kick drum sounds, he got the kick sound so it was "fuckin sick man" at the back of the room. Anywhere nearer the stage and all you could hear was kick. There was no bass guitar AT ALL. Just kick, that fucking tom, and a sprinkle of guitar and vocal just peeping over the top when.

The other thing is that every show I go to lately is just too loud, even with my obsessive use of earplugs. Even a good, well-balanced and rich mix sounds shit when it deafens you. Maybe venues have overpowering subs that touring sound guys don't know how to balance so everything just gets pushed up, maybe they're used to bigger, better rooms in London/Manchester/wherever, but I feel like I would have a much better time at the last few shows I've seen if they turned it down a touch. What kind of dick-waving mentality means you HAVE to be pushing against the ceiling of the legal noise limit? It's not even like it's big amps turned up and sounding glorious, it's just sterile PAs pushing out a crushing volume.

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