Increasing the speed of a lick

What's Hot
I’m trying to learn Parisienne Walkways and I’m learning that fast lick. It’s much faster than anything I’ve ever played but I’m enjoying the challenge. 

After a couple of days of practicing it super slow - probably around 40% of actual speed - I’ve got it in my fingers. 

In order to eventually get it up to performance speed, is it best to just keep ramping it up gradually - say 5/10% a day and just try and get it that little bit faster every day? Or stick with it at a comfortable speed for a while then try and ramp it up much quicker?
0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom
«1

Comments

  • Matt_McGMatt_McG Frets: 321
    I think contemporary advice is that beyond a certain point, you'll probably need to jump up. Picking technique isn't necessarily the same technique at fast and at slow speeds.

    Using speed bursts can be useful. 
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 1reaction image Wisdom
  • BRISTOL86BRISTOL86 Frets: 1920
    Matt_McG said:
    I think contemporary advice is that beyond a certain point, you'll probably need to jump up. Picking technique isn't necessarily the same technique at fast and at slow speeds.

    Using speed bursts can be useful. 
    Yeah. I ramped it up to 60% last night and although I could physically move my fingers fast enough it was a bit sloppy so I think I’ll aim for 5/10% increments until I can do it cleanly at each new speed. 
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom
  • NeillNeill Frets: 941
    BRISTOL86 said:
    I’m trying to learn Parisienne Walkways and I’m learning that fast lick. It’s much faster than anything I’ve ever played but I’m enjoying the challenge. 

    After a couple of days of practicing it super slow - probably around 40% of actual speed - I’ve got it in my fingers. 

    In order to eventually get it up to performance speed, is it best to just keep ramping it up gradually - say 5/10% a day and just try and get it that little bit faster every day? Or stick with it at a comfortable speed for a while then try and ramp it up much quicker?
    Traditionally that's always been the way, but modern thinking seems to be you will never get these fast runs down until you develop a fast alternate picking technique which means just practicing fast up and down picking on one note.  

    However, there's no doubt in my mind that the technique of say a Tommy Emmanuel or Guthrie Govan is God given - I could practice for a thousand years and I'd never be able to play like that.  

    I don't know if other people find this, but before modern technology came along, and gave us the facility to be able to slow music down without lowering pitch, we had to learn riffs and licks in "real time".  I've found that if I can hear the notes in real time I can usually play them, if the notes are too fast for me to make out I know I can't play it. 
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 2reaction image Wisdom
  • BRISTOL86BRISTOL86 Frets: 1920
    Good point re the alternate picking speed. I feel most of the bottleneck with me is actually picking hand rather than fretting hand. 

    I am having lessons now but started out on my own and shied away from using a pick as I started out on acoustic, finger picking - my picking technique is definitely lagging behind my fretting 
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom
  • Also worth noting - when you make the jump, the key is often not to try to make it faster, but to relax and let your wrist/fingers do the work. Tension will always slow you down here.
    <space for hire>
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom
  • BRISTOL86BRISTOL86 Frets: 1920
    Also worth noting - when you make the jump, the key is often not to try to make it faster, but to relax and let your wrist/fingers do the work. Tension will always slow you down here.
    Yeah tension is definitely an issue for me that I’m working on!
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom
  • You might wish to try what I call the push & relax technique. If you can play comfortably at n bpm, then try pushing yourself to n+4 bpm. If that works, at a pinch, then play it a few times at n+4 bpm, then relax and play it at n+2 bpm. Today, you have increaded your speed by 2bpm, and you can begin again tomorrow by setting n = n+2.
    "Working" software has only unobserved bugs. (Parroty Error: Pieces of Nine! Pieces of Nine!)
    Seriously: If you value it, take/fetch it yourself
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 2reaction image Wisdom
  • Matt_McGMatt_McG Frets: 321
    Classical guitar players using speed bursts -- Scott Tennant's book Pumping Nylon is pretty good on this -- would play a piece at N bpm and then drop a bar in where they double-timed it. And played it at 2N bpm. It might start sloppy, but you'd be surprised. 

    For me, when I worked on the Troy Grady stuff, I quickly discovered that I could physically move my hands fast enough, and I could play fast enough if I was just doing, say, a three note lick on one string. My issue was with being sloppy at memorising things and getting the phrasing right, in chunks, and then speeding up. Working with very small chunked phrases helps.
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 1reaction image Wisdom
  • stratman3142stratman3142 Frets: 2177
    edited January 2018
    I'm pretty sure most of it is hammer-ons and pull offs.

    I used to play this song in a band years back. I must admit I made up my own version of the fast lick. It's not so much the speed that's an issue to me, but I struggle with the exact phrasing/timing of that particular lick. Perhaps I'll give it another go. 

    I alternate between going over things slowly to get the notes into my head, but I'll also push for attempts at max speed. As has been said previously, "technique isn't necessarily the same technique at fast and at slow speeds".

    When I think I've got a fast lick, I'll record myself. If I think it's sounding messy at speed, I'll go over it at slow speed. So it's to and fro between fast and slow.

    It's not a competition.
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 1reaction image Wisdom
  • vizviz Frets: 10643
    I’m not sure which bit you mean? We play that song and I can’t place which bit you refer to
    Roland said: Scales are primarily a tool for categorising knowledge, not a rule for what can or cannot be played.
    Supportact said: [my style is] probably more an accumulation of limitations and bad habits than a 'style'.
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom
  • JAYJOJAYJO Frets: 1526
    My take. if you give someone a ball and a pair of boots and tell them to train hard every day they still wont be able to match Ronaldo, or players who are far less talented than him.
    But they can enjoy the training (as you are) and the game they love to play. im not saying you cant polish a turd as its something i havent tried (probably a guitar book on it somewhere). I would say play that part differently (your way) you will still be learning a lot and you can move forward.
    just my tuppence mate good luck and hope you get there.
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom
  • viz said:
    I’m not sure which bit you mean? We play that song and I can’t place which bit you refer to


    I think it's this bit. This guy does a very good job. But I still hear it slightly different.



    It's not a competition.
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom
  • BRISTOL86BRISTOL86 Frets: 1920
    Thanks all, very helpful stuff as always :)

    @stratman3142 yes that’s the one I mean, it’s about 1m20 into the song if I remember rightly 
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom
  • stratman3142stratman3142 Frets: 2177
    edited January 2018
    How are people playing this? This is my take on it. Any other thoughts?


    ...and assuming that's remotely close, I find it easier to think of it in three chunks below



    It's some way to go before I'm happy with it, and I still can't work out the timing to give the rhythmic notation. It's a case of go for it and try to target the timing of the end note.

    It's not a competition.
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom
  • BRISTOL86BRISTOL86 Frets: 1920
    How are people playing this? This is my take on it. Any other thoughts?


    ...and assuming that's remotely close, I find it easier to think of it in three chunks below



    It's some way to go before I'm happy with it, and I still can't work out the timing to give the rhythmic notation. It's a case of go for it and try to target the timing of the end note.

    Very very similar to the tab i've been given by my tutor.
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom
  • RolandRoland Frets: 8590
    With a lot of these fast runs it comes down to the player’s mannerisms. Gary Moore played it that way because that’s the way his fingers worked when he let them loose on a phrase. What the audience heard was the emotion which was behind his playing. You can train yourself to get close to Gary’s timing and emphasis, but what’s more exciting for an audience is that you use your own mannerisms, and let your fingers do something which conveys your own emotion.
    Tree recycler, and guitarist with  https://www.undercoversband.com/.
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 2reaction image Wisdom
  • vizviz Frets: 10643
    Ah ok cheers. I think he plays that bit differently every time. I’d consider it as a generic clatter down the stairs of a minor penta. I’ve never actually even thought of it as a precise phrase - never even noticed it actually - and I’ve played the song hundreds of times! Oops. 
    Roland said: Scales are primarily a tool for categorising knowledge, not a rule for what can or cannot be played.
    Supportact said: [my style is] probably more an accumulation of limitations and bad habits than a 'style'.
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom
  • Roland said:
    With a lot of these fast runs it comes down to the player’s mannerisms. Gary Moore played it that way because that’s the way his fingers worked when he let them loose on a phrase. What the audience heard was the emotion which was behind his playing. You can train yourself to get close to Gary’s timing and emphasis, but what’s more exciting for an audience is that you use your own mannerisms, and let your fingers do something which conveys your own emotion.
    I agree.

    And like @viz I didn't previously think of it as a precise phrase, so I made up my own version. Still it was interesting trying to work out what I think he played. But live I'd play safe and go with something that falls more naturally under my fingers and the way I play.
    It's not a competition.
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 1reaction image Wisdom
  • there is a misconception about tension in the guitar community - any time the muscles are doing work that they are not used to there will be tension.  Guitarists have to recognize where tension is being helpful and where it isn't being helpful.  Just like any athletic performance, tension is needed to activate the muscles needed for the fast performance.  If you feel some tension just don't stop, unless you are feeling pain.  It's likely helpful tension, much like a weightlifter pushing himself in the gym.  Once you get used to it you will notice an increase in your speed, finger independence and so on.

    Now, as far as that lick, as others have said, just make up your own fast legato type version of it.  if you want to kind of try to get it right try to hit the same first note on every beat that Gary does. 

    For example - if he plays a C on the first beat you play a C, then if he plays a G on the second beat,  you play a G etc.  You can fill the the rest of the notes as you see fit. 


    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom
  • BRISTOL86BRISTOL86 Frets: 1920
    Thanks all. Ultimately I’m not fussed about a note for note transcription of this particular lick, it was more the broader question about the correct approach to inreasing speed.

    I’ve seen a lot of people saying about playing something incredibly slowly for a long period (ie everyday for 30 days) but not sure how realistic that is, as has been said, the technique just seems very different at such extreme opposites of speed that I figure it may be best to just try and master it at one tempo then gradually increase. 
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom
Sign In or Register to comment.