Increasing the speed of a lick

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  • BRISTOL86 said:

    I’ve seen a lot of people saying about playing something incredibly slowly for a long period (ie everyday for 30 days) but not sure how realistic that is, as has been said, the technique just seems very different at such extreme opposites of speed that I figure it may be best to just try and master it at one tempo then gradually increase. 

    You're right - the talk of playing something slow and gradually speeding it up is a waste of time.  As you say, slow technique is completely different to fast technique. 

    The advice would be to play it at a medium to fast tempo, don't worry if it's sloppy, you can always clean it up.  Just get the fingering and feel of the lick down and then clean it up. 


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  • RolandRoland Frets: 8590

    You're right - the talk of playing something slow and gradually speeding it up is a waste of time.  As you say, slow technique is completely different to fast technique. 

    Not quite. You have to take it slow to engage muscle memory for the finger positions. After that I agree with you. Play at a decent speed, and just be careful not to introduce any sloppy habits.
    Tree recycler, and guitarist with  https://www.undercoversband.com/.
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  • stratman3142stratman3142 Frets: 2177
    edited January 2018
    I decided to do a real world experiment to answer your question.

    I've done a bit more work on it and found a version that works for me that has some slight differences from my previous post. I'm still not 100% sure whether it's exactly what Gary Moore plays on the album version. but it sounds similar to my ear.

    To get it up to speed I chose to break it down into three chunks. If anyone else has other ideas it would be good to hear them.


    In answer to your question about getting it up to speed:

    I worked on each chunk separately, playing it slowly to get it into my head. Then attempting full speed. When it fell over, I went back to slower speed. Although it's largely hammer-ons and pull-offs, I had to think about the direction of the pick strokes in a way that worked for me and get that into my head. I've indicated the pick strokes in the tab above. It's just what works for me and maybe not for everyone.

    Once I'd got each section, I then attempted the whole thing, going to and fro between slow and full speed. I also recorded myself playing it. I'd also go back to the individual chunks if that was where it started to fall over.

    I've worked on it over a period of three days, taking long breaks. The hardest bit I found was to getting it into my head and I still haven't got the exact phrasing sorted out, which is pretty alien to the way I play. Below is a clip of where I am right now. There's the full lick, then I play the three separate chunks at slower speed. At least if you listen to this and think it sounds shit, you'll know that I have no credibility and you shouldn't listen to my opinion . Feel free to throw stones.

    It's not a competition.
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  • BRISTOL86BRISTOL86 Frets: 1920
    That's awesome mate, way faster than I can currently play it haha.
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  • vizviz Frets: 10643
    Very good!
    Roland said: Scales are primarily a tool for categorising knowledge, not a rule for what can or cannot be played.
    Supportact said: [my style is] probably more an accumulation of limitations and bad habits than a 'style'.
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  • richhrichh Frets: 449
    A very long time ago I played in a band and we did a couple of Gary Moore songs, and in both there were some very fast alternate picked bits in solos, that I could never get near, especially live.  On a good day at home I maybe got close, but that went out the window in the heat of the moment.  I did nail the slower passages, and these bits, building up to a frenzy at the end of a solo, I winged it using pulls off / hammer ons, and looking back, it was fine. Though it always frustrated me TBH.

    So don't forget the most important thing when you reach the fast bits - make sure that you correctly adopt the rock stance, gurn properly and generally look as if you're going through a particularly troublesome exorcism.  That'll go down a treat with the punters, even if you monumentally fuck up the actual solo.
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  • Dan_HalenDan_Halen Frets: 1646
    Metronome I'm afraid. Drop it to 50% tempo or wherever it's utterly faultless and play it 5 times right. Up the metronome 2bpm, do it again 5 times, up it 2bpm and so on. When you balls it up, back down 2bpm. It's boring but it works.

    If you find any bits are just not sitting quite right there's probably a hammer or a pick stroke in the opposite direction so, if you see a chance to be more efficient, that's the name of the game.

    If you get one tricky lick like that really nailed you can use it all over the place, take bits of it and make your own licks etc from it, drop it in other songs. If you hit a roadblock like this, it's so worth putting in the time to overcome it because that's what pushes you as a player - not just learning more stuff in your comfort zone.


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  • BRISTOL86BRISTOL86 Frets: 1920
    Yeah I’m just going to try and gradually increase it over time. It’s great trying to move outside of your comfort zone ... I hate not being able to do something that I want to be able to do ... so it’s a powerful motivator!
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  • stratman3142stratman3142 Frets: 2177
    edited January 2018
    I think the approach might depend on where you are in developing your motor skills (if that's the right word). If you're developing speed/fluency in areas such as picking, hammers-ons/pull-offs, legato etc. then maybe working up slowly is a good approach.

    Then having developed the basic 'motor skill' (or muscle memory) it's possible to reuse use it, even for a different phrase (which I think connects back to what @Dan_Halen said). However, having developed a motor skill, the problem for a new lick then becomes more about getting it into your head, which is where the 'chunking' approach works for me.

    I have to say though, trying to force through a barrier and learning how it 'feels' to play fast is part of the process of building the speed for me. Although, I'm not a fast player by modern standards.

    Maybe different things work for different players.

    Incidentally I listed hammer-ons/pull-offs and legato separately earlier because to me they're slightly different things. I see hammer-ons/pull-offs combined with fast picking as something that Gary Moore does (e.g. on this lick). Whereas, legato is more akin to what Holdsworth or Tom Quayle do, so it's a related discipline but not exactly the same with regard to practice. Perhaps a gross oversimplification might be to say that Hammer-ons/pull-offs are more 'thumb over'. But it's a shades of grey thing and many players (e.g. EVH) sit somewhere in the middle.

    It's not a competition.
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  • BRISTOL86BRISTOL86 Frets: 1920
    @stratman3142 are you using your pinky at all for this lick? I've been using primarily fingers 1-3 but my stretch between 1 and 3 is just a bit too small and I think this is where some of the bottleneck is for me. I'm also quite a 'thumby' player (i.e. over the top) and I notice I can be faster with a strict thumb at the back policy - but it's very alien to me..

    I notice the guy in the Youtube video is keeping his thumb high and not using his pinky so I guess there's no excuse for me really :)
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  • stratman3142stratman3142 Frets: 2177
    edited January 2018
    I use my pinky because it feels more comfortable. I'm aware that Gary Moore would have probably played this sort of lick with fingers 1-3. But for this lick my thumb is over and not at the back of the neck.

     I'm left handed but play right handed and often use my pinky in preference to my 3rd finger as it results in a more comfortable hand position for me. Although I believe Gary Moore was left handed as well so that's not really a good reason.

    Btw. When I was learning the fast bit, I missed out the preceding couple of notes with the bend because that unnecessarily increased finger fatigue during constant repetition.
    It's not a competition.
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  • BRISTOL86BRISTOL86 Frets: 1920
    I use my pinky because it feels more comfortable. I'm aware that Gary Moore would have probably played this sort of lick with fingers 1-3. But for this lick my thumb is over and not at the back of the neck.

     I'm left handed but play right handed and often use my pinky in preference to my 3rd finger as it results in a more comfortable hand position for me. Although I believe Gary Moore was left handed as well so that's not really a good reason.

    Btw. When I was learning the fast bit, I missed out the preceding couple of notes with the bend because that unnecessarily increased finger fatigue during constant repetition.
    Thanks for that.

    Yeah I think I’ll just stick to how I instinctively felt was natural for me which is thumb over a bit but I might try using the pinky on 8 instead of the third finger. I’m over stretching for it with the third finger and it’s making me sloppy on the 5th fret notes. 
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  • vizviz Frets: 10643
    I use my pinky because it feels more comfortable. I'm aware that Gary Moore would have probably played this sort of lick with fingers 1-3. But for this lick my thumb is over and not at the back of the neck.

     I'm left handed but play right handed and often use my pinky in preference to my 3rd finger as it results in a more comfortable hand position for me. Although I believe Gary Moore was left handed as well so that's not really a good reason.

    Btw. When I was learning the fast bit, I missed out the preceding couple of notes with the bend because that unnecessarily increased finger fatigue during constant repetition.
    Or even fingers 1-2 for the tones. 

    Which makes me think about metronomes and playing quickly. I think they’re probably a good discipline for very accurate finger control but I’m not sure that’s what you actually want if you’re trying to copy Gary Moore’s rather free-flowing, organic style. 

    I expect he didn’t use a metronome to get to his level. I reckon his approach was to play what he wanted to play as quickly as he could, getting more accurate (and quicker) over time; not having precise licks in mind and then trying to reach a certain speed incrementally over time with a controlled speed approach. Apart from set pieces like the run in Out in the Fields. I think he’s also partly playing what’s comfortable to him - his note choices in those flurries are as much about what his fingers naturally fall to as they are a deliberate choice - as is evident from his 1-2 finger approach which is quite bizarre but works for him. He’d probably have struggled just like anyone else to play exactly like Van Halen or Satriani or Vai. Not because they’re more difficult to copy, but because their styles wouldn’t fall naturally to his fingers.

    I don’t know if I’m right. But if so then I’m not sure metronomes are the right way to go. It could be better deeply to study the journey he went through to reach his level (which can be reverse engineered from studying his later playing) and copy that. You might end up with slightly different licks from Moore’s but they will sound as natural as his because the music will be based on your own natural technique and characteristics. Maybe metronomes can supplement that but maybe they might actually be detrimental to that style.
    Roland said: Scales are primarily a tool for categorising knowledge, not a rule for what can or cannot be played.
    Supportact said: [my style is] probably more an accumulation of limitations and bad habits than a 'style'.
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  • BRISTOL86BRISTOL86 Frets: 1920
    Interesting points @viz ;

    In the main I would agree and normally have little interest in ‘note for note’ learning of a phrase. But having just started lessons, my tutor picked Parisienne Walkways for us to look at, and having given me this lick to work on, I really want to nail it. I think he’s expecting me to come back on Friday and be able to play it at maybe 40% speed and I’m aiming for 80% so it’s keeping me very disciplined in my practice!

    It’s easily the hardest lead thing I’ve ever played so I think the act of focuassing solely on this and trying to take something out of my comfort zone and power through it will be really good for my general development. 
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  • BRISTOL86BRISTOL86 Frets: 1920
    Ok I reckon I’m definitely on to something with the concept of not using the pinky slowing me down.

    It feels weird right now to do it, where I’m not very used to using the pinky, but I can tell I’m more efficient if I use it, despite having to drop the speed back down, if that makes sense. 
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  • flying_pieflying_pie Frets: 1806
    edited February 2018
    I'm trying to learn to increase picking speed but a big help was the notion that I can already pick fast when tremolo picking. I can't recall the precise bpm but 16th notes with a single note could be managed accurately very high up the metronome. The issue is more one of building up coordination between hands.

    When practicing at lower speeds rather than just bash away with slow techniques getting sloppier as the speed increases instead concentrate on the tiny movements and angles used when trem picking. And also playing short fast bursts and increasing the lengths. 

    And Paul Gilbert says there's nothing wrong with the odd bit of legato in fast picking. 
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  • BRISTOL86BRISTOL86 Frets: 1920
    Thanks, helpful! I’ve been getting up to 80-90% speed but that’s getting very sloppy. It’s definitely a picking/coordination thing.
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  • BRISTOL86 said:
    Thanks, helpful! I’ve been getting up to 80-90% speed but that’s getting very sloppy. It’s definitely a picking/coordination thing.

    Keep up with the fast picking and concentrate on getting the coordination.  The wrist movements you use to play fast are completely different from those that you play slow with, so that's why practicing at a medium to fast speed is important. 
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