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Modewheel - a reference tool I came up with

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  • tralfamadan said: 
    Awesome! I'll try the app out too.
    Thanks. Hope it runs ok and proves useful.
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  • I think that looks great and is very useful. Thanks a lot!
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  • I think that looks great and is very useful. Thanks a lot!
    Thanks for taking a look, and hope you find it useful.
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  • Flink_PoydFlink_Poyd Frets: 2490
    Im just getting to grips with modes. I understand the basic concept after watching a few videos by Steve Stine, something Ive struggled with for about a year now.





    This is a great addition and really helps with visualizing the modes. Top work, dont over complicate it!

    Nobody is guaranteed tomorrow.....


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  • Thank you to everyone who checked it out. I've added the Harmonic Minor and Melodic Minor scales. Just choose your mode from the drop down and chocks away. I'll update the Android app over the next few days, too. Just need to get a bit better at Java.
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  • Nice tool :smiley:  l too have been experimenting with JavaScript for a guitar related tool recently, it's fun! I come from an embedded software / mobile development background so it's somewhat of a different beast to get to grips with.
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  • Nice tool :smiley:  l too have been experimenting with JavaScript for a guitar related tool recently, it's fun! I come from an embedded software / mobile development background so it's somewhat of a different beast to get to grips with.
    If you want to see, the code is all available in the main JS file. The JS is the same in the Android version (although I'm rewriting it in Java, something you'd probably laugh at!).
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  • Cool, if you ever want a coding partner for a project let me know! Especially Android, as I've been developing for it (on and off) since 2010.
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  • Very good, especially for the minor modes. But not always harmonically correct. e.g. for the C Mixolydian it has the 7th as A# whereas, and I might be wrong, I would have thought it was Bb to keep the alphabetical (and numerical, Bb being the flattened 7th of C) steps of the scale. I'm sure that would take a bit more coding. But wow, all these free tools I would have killed for as a youngster when I didn't even know there was only a semitone between E/F and B/C. I knew the 12th fret was an octave but counting up with a sharp after every note got me to the 14th! I didn't have a piano or any books and it shows you how bad the music education was then, grammar school too.
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  • Very good, especially for the minor modes. But not always harmonically correct. e.g. for the C Mixolydian it has the 7th as A# whereas, and I might be wrong, I would have thought it was Bb to keep the alphabetical (and numerical, Bb being the flattened 7th of C) steps of the scale. I'm sure that would take a bit more coding. But wow, all these free tools I would have killed for as a youngster when I didn't even know there was only a semitone between E/F and B/C. I knew the 12th fret was an octave but counting up with a sharp after every note got me to the 14th! I didn't have a piano or any books and it shows you how bad the music education was then, grammar school too.
    That's an issue of enharmonic equivalence, but it's not really related to this. This device is there to show how the intervals of any given mode look and relate to one another. Getting into enharmonics would massively clutter things up and detract from its simplicity. I did hope that was immediately apparent, but perhaps, outside the course I wrote, that's not so.

    Cool, if you ever want a coding partner for a project let me know! Especially Android, as I've been developing for it (on and off) since 2010.
    If it's ok, at some point, could I run some code by you? Nothing heavy. Would just be good to see if I'm doing something fundamentally bad for performance, that sort of thing.
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  • vizviz Frets: 10645
    edited February 2018
    Very good, especially for the minor modes. But not always harmonically correct. e.g. for the C Mixolydian it has the 7th as A# whereas, and I might be wrong, I would have thought it was Bb to keep the alphabetical (and numerical, Bb being the flattened 7th of C) steps of the scale. I'm sure that would take a bit more coding. But wow, all these free tools I would have killed for as a youngster when I didn't even know there was only a semitone between E/F and B/C. I knew the 12th fret was an octave but counting up with a sharp after every note got me to the 14th! I didn't have a piano or any books and it shows you how bad the music education was then, grammar school too.
    That's an issue of enharmonic equivalence, but it's not really related to this. This device is there to show how the intervals of any given mode look and relate to one another. Getting into enharmonics would massively clutter things up and detract from its simplicity. I did hope that was immediately apparent, but perhaps, outside the course I wrote, that's not so.


    Yes but the problem is that F major has a Bb not an A# - so does all its modes. The tool is great, it’s SO simple and smooth, but this aspect is unfortunately a bit misleading. It suggests for example that there is such as thing as C# major.

    I don’t know how you could get round it but as a next stage of development would it be possible for it to account for the flat keys, F, Bb, Eb, Ab and Db? Other tools on the net struggle with this issue by the way; they either ignore it or show both alternatives which looks ugly. Could your note names maybe fade into their flat equivalents as the wheel turns? - that’d be amazing.
    Roland said: Scales are primarily a tool for categorising knowledge, not a rule for what can or cannot be played.
    Supportact said: [my style is] probably more an accumulation of limitations and bad habits than a 'style'.
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  • That's really useful, especially for someone who still thinks in either major or minor rather than individual modes.

    BTW I've just installed the app and it's running fine on my phone. I just need to remember that Ionian is major when trying to align it...
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  • viz said:
    Very good, especially for the minor modes. But not always harmonically correct. e.g. for the C Mixolydian it has the 7th as A# whereas, and I might be wrong, I would have thought it was Bb to keep the alphabetical (and numerical, Bb being the flattened 7th of C) steps of the scale. I'm sure that would take a bit more coding. But wow, all these free tools I would have killed for as a youngster when I didn't even know there was only a semitone between E/F and B/C. I knew the 12th fret was an octave but counting up with a sharp after every note got me to the 14th! I didn't have a piano or any books and it shows you how bad the music education was then, grammar school too.
    That's an issue of enharmonic equivalence, but it's not really related to this. This device is there to show how the intervals of any given mode look and relate to one another. Getting into enharmonics would massively clutter things up and detract from its simplicity. I did hope that was immediately apparent, but perhaps, outside the course I wrote, that's not so.


    Yes but the problem is that F major has a Bb not an A# - so does all its modes. The tool is great, it’s SO simple and smooth, but this aspect is unfortunately a bit misleading. It suggests for example that there is such as thing as C# major.

    I don’t know how you could get round it but as a next stage of development would it be possible for it to account for the flat keys, F, Bb, Eb, Ab and Db? Other tools on the net struggle with this issue by the way; they either ignore it or show both alternatives which looks ugly. Could your note names maybe fade into their flat equivalents as the wheel turns? - that’d be amazing.

    I appreciate what you're saying. In my lessons, which are part of an introduction to music theory and the major scale, I discuss enharmonics, although not at the point at which the modes are first introduced. And there are two reasons for this.

    Firstly, I think enharmonics add confusion to that subject that isn't really helpful. You can perfectly understand the intervalic nature of the major scale (and most of music theory) without coming up against enharmonic note naming. It's left until a later chapter (actually the following one, I think).

    Secondly, and more fundamentally, I don't really like the convention. I completely appreciate its function in standard notation, but elsewhere, I don't really see the point. Calling the F in C# major 'E#' seems basically ludicrous to me.
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  • That's really useful, especially for someone who still thinks in either major or minor rather than individual modes.

    BTW I've just installed the app and it's running fine on my phone. I just need to remember that Ionian is major when trying to align it...
    Thanks for checking the app. It's odd that it works well on some phones and not others. Both my Android devices, it runs poorly on. I'm hoping getting better at app development will let me improve it.

    And I did think about labelling or numbering the modes on the wheel, but I thought it would lead to further visual clutter and make it less appealing.
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  • LeeCassidy said:

    Thanks for checking the app. It's odd that it works well on some phones and not others. Both my Android devices, it runs poorly on. I'm hoping getting better at app development will let me improve it.

    And I did think about labelling or numbering the modes on the wheel, but I thought it would lead to further visual clutter and make it less appealing.
    FWIW I'm using a Sony Xperia Z5 compact with Android 7.1.1

    I don't think it needs any different labelling. I was just joking that it takes my brain a bit too remember that Ionian is the major scale. 

    One thing for consideration though @LeeCassidy - I might be better if the wheel snapped to each note rather than free turning. It can be a bit fiddly to get it to sit neatly.
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  • vizviz Frets: 10645
    edited February 2018
    viz said:
    Very good, especially for the minor modes. But not always harmonically correct. e.g. for the C Mixolydian it has the 7th as A# whereas, and I might be wrong, I would have thought it was Bb to keep the alphabetical (and numerical, Bb being the flattened 7th of C) steps of the scale. I'm sure that would take a bit more coding. But wow, all these free tools I would have killed for as a youngster when I didn't even know there was only a semitone between E/F and B/C. I knew the 12th fret was an octave but counting up with a sharp after every note got me to the 14th! I didn't have a piano or any books and it shows you how bad the music education was then, grammar school too.
    That's an issue of enharmonic equivalence, but it's not really related to this. This device is there to show how the intervals of any given mode look and relate to one another. Getting into enharmonics would massively clutter things up and detract from its simplicity. I did hope that was immediately apparent, but perhaps, outside the course I wrote, that's not so.


    Yes but the problem is that F major has a Bb not an A# - so does all its modes. The tool is great, it’s SO simple and smooth, but this aspect is unfortunately a bit misleading. It suggests for example that there is such as thing as C# major.

    I don’t know how you could get round it but as a next stage of development would it be possible for it to account for the flat keys, F, Bb, Eb, Ab and Db? Other tools on the net struggle with this issue by the way; they either ignore it or show both alternatives which looks ugly. Could your note names maybe fade into their flat equivalents as the wheel turns? - that’d be amazing.

    I appreciate what you're saying. In my lessons, which are part of an introduction to music theory and the major scale, I discuss enharmonics, although not at the point at which the modes are first introduced. And there are two reasons for this.

    Firstly, I think enharmonics add confusion to that subject that isn't really helpful. You can perfectly understand the intervalic nature of the major scale (and most of music theory) without coming up against enharmonic note naming. It's left until a later chapter (actually the following one, I think).

    Secondly, and more fundamentally, I don't really like the convention. I completely appreciate its function in standard notation, but elsewhere, I don't really see the point. Calling the F in C# major 'E#' seems basically ludicrous to me.
    Well that’s why C# Ionian doesn’t really ‘exist’, and that’s the thing about the tool I’m trying to say. C# major (with 7 sharps) is actually Db major with 5 flats - and therefore F can indeed be an F. “A# major” would have three double-sharps as I’m sure you know!

    That’s why I’m saying it would be fantastic if the tool could deal with the flat keys. It’s not a modal issue, it’s not an enharmonic issue; it’s a keys issue. Though of course it applies to all the modes of all the flat keys too, so for example the relative minor (or Aeolian) of Db major is Bb minor, which also has 5 flats, not A# minor which would have 7 sharps. Similarly there’s no such thing as D# Dorian, F# Lydian or G# Mixolydian.

    It’s such a nice tool, and all it would need is for the 5 sharp notes all to be replaced with their flat equivalents for your C#, D#, G# and A# Ionians, and for F Ionian. You could leave them as they are for F# Ionian. Don’t know if it’s easy or even possible but it would make the tool perfect, that’s all. (And the F in F# Ionian ought really to be renamed as an E#, which you might not like and would add an additional level of programming complexity because it only applies to that one key). 

    By the way I completely agree that you can understand the major scale agnostically of key; in fact I made a compendium of all 7-note scales here: different colour scheme though!  

    http://www.guitaristtv.com/Downloads/Modes%202014_02_18%20-%20for%20GTV.xlsx
     
    Roland said: Scales are primarily a tool for categorising knowledge, not a rule for what can or cannot be played.
    Supportact said: [my style is] probably more an accumulation of limitations and bad habits than a 'style'.
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  • @viz said:
    Well that’s why C# Ionian doesn’t really ‘exist’, and that’s the thing about the tool I’m trying to say. C# major (with 7 sharps) is actually Db major with 5 flats - and therefore F can indeed be an F. “A# major” would have three double-sharps as I’m sure you know!

    That’s why I’m saying it would be fantastic if the tool could deal with the flat keys. It’s not a modal issue, it’s not an enharmonic issue; it’s a keys issue. Though of course it applies to all the modes of all the flat keys too, so for example the relative minor (or Aeolian) of Db major is Bb minor, which also has 5 flats, not A# minor which would have 7 sharps. Similarly there’s no such thing as D# Dorian, F# Lydian or G# Mixolydian.

    It’s such a nice tool, and all it would need is for the 5 sharp notes all to be replaced with their flat equivalents for your C#, D#, G# and A# Ionians, and for F Ionian. You could leave them as they are for F# Ionian. Don’t know if it’s easy or even possible but it would make the tool perfect, that’s all. (And the F in F# Ionian ought really to be renamed as an E#, which you might not like and would add an additional level of programming complexity because it only applies to that one key). 

    By the way I completely agree that you can understand the major scale agnostically of key; in fact I made a compendium of all 7-note scales here: different colour scheme though!  

    http://www.guitaristtv.com/Downloads/Modes%202014_02_18%20-%20for%20GTV.xlsx
     


    Sorry, that was a typo. I meant F#major.

    You say it's not an enharmonic issue, that it's a key issue. I think I would say it's using a system/convention of using enharmonic names for the notes of keys, and that ultimately is done so that they can be easily written in standard notation. You can talk about the key of Bflat, for example, and use only sharps in just about every way other than standard notation and not encounter any issues.

    Setting Ionian to C# on this tool, it's perfectly intelligible what that scale is, what notes it uses, what note fits where in the order, etc. 

    I say all this, but it's not like I'm waging a jihad against the circle of fourths or anything. It's just that I think this tool is intelligible as it is. I accept what you're saying, that it is not describing the notes with respect to common practice in written music, but I feel it's effective for those who know that stuff and those who don't. And I think for those who don't, it may be a source of confusion.

    Creating it isn't too much of an issue for the website, at least I don't think it is. But the app, it would add a layer of complexity I can't work through yet, I'm afraid.

    That spreadsheet. Jeez, that's comprehensive, and a very cool resource. That would make a fantastic web library of some sort, especially with the bundled MIDI. I think I might just slightly prefer my colour scheme, though!


    By the way, I hope none of this comes across as aggro, or argumentative. I appreciate what you're saying, and taking the time to check this thing and feedback.

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  • LeeCassidy said:

    Thanks for checking the app. It's odd that it works well on some phones and not others. Both my Android devices, it runs poorly on. I'm hoping getting better at app development will let me improve it.

    And I did think about labelling or numbering the modes on the wheel, but I thought it would lead to further visual clutter and make it less appealing.
    FWIW I'm using a Sony Xperia Z5 compact with Android 7.1.1

    I don't think it needs any different labelling. I was just joking that it takes my brain a bit too remember that Ionian is the major scale. 

    One thing for consideration though @LeeCassidy - I might be better if the wheel snapped to each note rather than free turning. It can be a bit fiddly to get it to sit neatly.
    When I first made this, it actually did that (it rotated in 30deg steps), but I thought perhaps it might somehow distract the user. Like, if it didn't behave in a fashion that's immediately intuitive, that it might make it feel less usable. I wonder if it might be worth having that as an option? Perhaps a switch to toggle between a free rotating setting and that sort of snap-to. Keeping the UI clean is the challenge, but perhaps it could be an option in the drop down. I'll have a look into this. Thanks, Mr Pie!
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  • vizviz Frets: 10645
    edited February 2018
    @viz said:
    Well that’s why C# Ionian doesn’t really ‘exist’, and that’s the thing about the tool I’m trying to say. C# major (with 7 sharps) is actually Db major with 5 flats - and therefore F can indeed be an F. “A# major” would have three double-sharps as I’m sure you know!

    That’s why I’m saying it would be fantastic if the tool could deal with the flat keys. It’s not a modal issue, it’s not an enharmonic issue; it’s a keys issue. Though of course it applies to all the modes of all the flat keys too, so for example the relative minor (or Aeolian) of Db major is Bb minor, which also has 5 flats, not A# minor which would have 7 sharps. Similarly there’s no such thing as D# Dorian, F# Lydian or G# Mixolydian.

    It’s such a nice tool, and all it would need is for the 5 sharp notes all to be replaced with their flat equivalents for your C#, D#, G# and A# Ionians, and for F Ionian. You could leave them as they are for F# Ionian. Don’t know if it’s easy or even possible but it would make the tool perfect, that’s all. (And the F in F# Ionian ought really to be renamed as an E#, which you might not like and would add an additional level of programming complexity because it only applies to that one key). 

    By the way I completely agree that you can understand the major scale agnostically of key; in fact I made a compendium of all 7-note scales here: different colour scheme though!  

    http://www.guitaristtv.com/Downloads/Modes%202014_02_18%20-%20for%20GTV.xlsx
     


    Sorry, that was a typo. I meant F#major.

    You say it's not an enharmonic issue, that it's a key issue. I think I would say it's using a system/convention of using enharmonic names for the notes of keys, and that ultimately is done so that they can be easily written in standard notation. You can talk about the key of Bflat, for example, and use only sharps in just about every way other than standard notation and not encounter any issues.

    Setting Ionian to C# on this tool, it's perfectly intelligible what that scale is, what notes it uses, what note fits where in the order, etc. 

    I say all this, but it's not like I'm waging a jihad against the circle of fourths or anything. It's just that I think this tool is intelligible as it is. I accept what you're saying, that it is not describing the notes with respect to common practice in written music, but I feel it's effective for those who know that stuff and those who don't. And I think for those who don't, it may be a source of confusion.

    Creating it isn't too much of an issue for the website, at least I don't think it is. But the app, it would add a layer of complexity I can't work through yet, I'm afraid.

    That spreadsheet. Jeez, that's comprehensive, and a very cool resource. That would make a fantastic web library of some sort, especially with the bundled MIDI. I think I might just slightly prefer my colour scheme, though!


    By the way, I hope none of this comes across as aggro, or argumentative. I appreciate what you're saying, and taking the time to check this thing and feedback.

    100%, good discussion. And thanks for checking my scales - I’ve done them for octatonic, hexatonic and pentatonic too!

    I really agree with you about simplicity: everything, from the system of sharps and flats, and frameworks like the circle of fifths, and harmonic and melodic naming comventions, right to the design of the piano keyboard and even the development of western music itself through the centuries - every element of the system is coherent with all the others, and like you say, it’s all been steered to make things easy. But unless you’re using the whole system, or at least more than one element of it, I suppose some solutions can indeed come across as over-complicated. 

    So if you think it’s easier on balance to approach modes purely aurally and not worry about how many degrees away from Ionian Dorian is - at least initially - then ok. And what we’re talking about would affect pianists much more than rock guitarists anyway - a pianist would actually find it very hard to think in A# major, it would hurt the brain too much! But for those who don’t read music or who don’t need to use harmonic or melodic theory or discuss with classical musicians, I guess names don’t matter as much. 

    Cheers

    Roland said: Scales are primarily a tool for categorising knowledge, not a rule for what can or cannot be played.
    Supportact said: [my style is] probably more an accumulation of limitations and bad habits than a 'style'.
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  • viz said:
    @viz said:
    Well that’s why C# Ionian doesn’t really ‘exist’, and that’s the thing about the tool I’m trying to say. C# major (with 7 sharps) is actually Db major with 5 flats - and therefore F can indeed be an F. “A# major” would have three double-sharps as I’m sure you know!

    That’s why I’m saying it would be fantastic if the tool could deal with the flat keys. It’s not a modal issue, it’s not an enharmonic issue; it’s a keys issue. Though of course it applies to all the modes of all the flat keys too, so for example the relative minor (or Aeolian) of Db major is Bb minor, which also has 5 flats, not A# minor which would have 7 sharps. Similarly there’s no such thing as D# Dorian, F# Lydian or G# Mixolydian.

    It’s such a nice tool, and all it would need is for the 5 sharp notes all to be replaced with their flat equivalents for your C#, D#, G# and A# Ionians, and for F Ionian. You could leave them as they are for F# Ionian. Don’t know if it’s easy or even possible but it would make the tool perfect, that’s all. (And the F in F# Ionian ought really to be renamed as an E#, which you might not like and would add an additional level of programming complexity because it only applies to that one key). 

    By the way I completely agree that you can understand the major scale agnostically of key; in fact I made a compendium of all 7-note scales here: different colour scheme though!  

    http://www.guitaristtv.com/Downloads/Modes%202014_02_18%20-%20for%20GTV.xlsx
     


    Sorry, that was a typo. I meant F#major.

    You say it's not an enharmonic issue, that it's a key issue. I think I would say it's using a system/convention of using enharmonic names for the notes of keys, and that ultimately is done so that they can be easily written in standard notation. You can talk about the key of Bflat, for example, and use only sharps in just about every way other than standard notation and not encounter any issues.

    Setting Ionian to C# on this tool, it's perfectly intelligible what that scale is, what notes it uses, what note fits where in the order, etc. 

    I say all this, but it's not like I'm waging a jihad against the circle of fourths or anything. It's just that I think this tool is intelligible as it is. I accept what you're saying, that it is not describing the notes with respect to common practice in written music, but I feel it's effective for those who know that stuff and those who don't. And I think for those who don't, it may be a source of confusion.

    Creating it isn't too much of an issue for the website, at least I don't think it is. But the app, it would add a layer of complexity I can't work through yet, I'm afraid.

    That spreadsheet. Jeez, that's comprehensive, and a very cool resource. That would make a fantastic web library of some sort, especially with the bundled MIDI. I think I might just slightly prefer my colour scheme, though!


    By the way, I hope none of this comes across as aggro, or argumentative. I appreciate what you're saying, and taking the time to check this thing and feedback.

    100%, good discussion. And thanks for checking my scales - I’ve done them for octatonic, hexatonic and pentatonic too!

    I really agree with you about simplicity: everything, from the system of sharps and flats, and frameworks like the circle of fifths, and harmonic and melodic naming comventions, right to the design of the piano keyboard and even the development of western music itself through the centuries - every element of the system is coherent with all the others, and like you say, it’s all been steered to make things easy. But unless you’re using the whole system, or at least more than one element of it, I suppose some solutions can indeed come across as over-complicated. 

    So if you think it’s easier on balance to approach modes purely aurally and not worry about how many degrees away from Ionian Dorian is - at least initially - then ok. And what we’re talking about would affect pianists much more than rock guitarists anyway - a pianist would actually find it very hard to think in A# major, it would hurt the brain too much! But for those who don’t read music or who don’t need to use harmonic or melodic theory or discuss with classical musicians, I guess names don’t matter as much. 

    Cheers

    Hmm, I'd disagree and say that's not really what I'm doing, and that you can't divorce intervals from modes, at least not unless you want to regard them as unrelated happenstance. And the intervallic relationship between the modes is actually a central point of this tool, and what it was originally designed to convey. The only aspect of theory convention I've dispensed with here is the enharmonic note naming. Otherwise, this is entirely standard stuff.

    I also don't agree it'd hurt a pianist's brain to ditch thinking in terms of enharmonic naming conventions. I maintain the only real issue is with notation. Otherwise, it's no more intellectually taxing or complex to use all sharps or all flats, just different to classic/orthodox convention. I mean, Eflat major is no trickier to think of than Bflat major, despite having one more flat. Adding a few extra sharps or flats by extending the reach of either direction in the circle of fifths/fourths doesn't make it any trickier to understand. The only problem is notating it. 

    Would you mind sharing the other tools you made? Particularly interested in where you went with the penta- and hexatonic scales. There's a lot of ground to be covered there.
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