Hearing your guitars/rig played by someone else.

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  • axisusaxisus Frets: 28280
    I particularly notice that my Taylor acoustic sounds better when oldest son plays it. Jokes about how naff I am aside, I think that it's just the projection and sound quality when you are in front of it rather than behind.
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  • TrudeTrude Frets: 914
    Tone vs Sound:

    "Sound" is the basic noise that a physical system makes when it's vibrated by an arbitrary signal. Your gear has a basic sound, as does your voice or anything else. Here is the difference between Marshall/Fender/Gibson/Strat etc

    "Tone" is the character applied to that sound by the player via technique, emotion, touch etc. This bit most emphatically IS in the fingers.

    I don't know when or why people started describing gear as having "tone" of itself, but it annoys the hell out of me.



    Some of the gear, some idea

    Trading feedback here
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  • SporkySporky Frets: 27573
    Those are your personal definitions; if you'll excuse the pun they are not definitive.

    Wikipedia, for example, has both under "tone".

    Hence all the disagreements.
    "[Sporky] brings a certain vibe and dignity to the forum."
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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 71956
    ecc83 said:

    As a non-guitarists I call it a "real time feedback loop"!

    And this is exactly why it's both.

    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone." - Walt Kowalski

    "Just because I don't care, doesn't mean I don't understand." - Homer Simpson

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  • TrudeTrude Frets: 914
    Sporky said:
    Those are your personal definitions; if you'll excuse the pun they are not definitive.

    Wikipedia, for example, has both under "tone".

    Hence all the disagreements.
    Yep - fair enough.  And of course amps and guitars have tone controls, a sine wave is a pure tone, and you could describe an EQ curve has having a certain tonal balance, so there's a lot of semantic overspill.

    But for me, "tone" in this context is all about the human element.  Tone of voice, tone of a conversation etc.  

    When someone uses the expression "tone is in the fingers", some people react as if they have said "the ability to replicate any amp and guitar sound is in the fingers", which would clearly be bollocks.  But, I don't think that's what they are really saying.  I think they are saying "the ability to get a good, musical sound is in the fingers", which I'd agree with.
    Some of the gear, some idea

    Trading feedback here
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  • SporkySporky Frets: 27573
    It would be nice if we could all agree to use two different words for the two different concepts.

    But it'd make guitar forums very quiet. Must be 10% of the on-topic traffic is basically arguments about which definition someone is using...
    "[Sporky] brings a certain vibe and dignity to the forum."
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  • TeetonetalTeetonetal Frets: 7801
    axisus said:
    I particularly notice that my Taylor acoustic sounds better when oldest son plays it. Jokes about how naff I am aside, I think that it's just the projection and sound quality when you are in front of it rather than behind.
    Totally. 
    Where you hear gear from has a big impact. It's why wireless is so awesome!
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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 71956
    Trude said:
    Sporky said:
    Those are your personal definitions; if you'll excuse the pun they are not definitive.

    Wikipedia, for example, has both under "tone".

    Hence all the disagreements.
    Yep - fair enough.  And of course amps and guitars have tone controls, a sine wave is a pure tone, and you could describe an EQ curve has having a certain tonal balance, so there's a lot of semantic overspill.

    But for me, "tone" in this context is all about the human element.  Tone of voice, tone of a conversation etc.  

    When someone uses the expression "tone is in the fingers", some people react as if they have said "the ability to replicate any amp and guitar sound is in the fingers", which would clearly be bollocks.  But, I don't think that's what they are really saying.  I think they are saying "the ability to get a good, musical sound is in the fingers", which I'd agree with.
    The confusion comes partly from the fact that the actual *sound* is affected by the player as well - as in the basic frequency content, or what many would call 'tone'. While (obviously) no-one can make a Strat into a Twin sound as *distorted* as a Les Paul into a Marshall, it's sometimes surprising how much difference to the frequency response a player's touch makes.

    The reason for this is exactly what I quoted Dave on above - the player's ears/brain/fingers are inside a real-time feedback loop and you subconsciously (or consciously if you want to) modify your technique to produce the sound you want as you play, in the same way as you turn the 'tone' controls on the amp to give you the sound you want when you set it up.

    The two things aren't separate, which is in my opinion why modelling equipment often sounds less 'natural' to the player in the room, when it might sound indistinguishable from the thing it's modelling to a listener or even when a sample of a guitar being played is put through it - because it doesn't always respond to subtle changes in playing in the same way.

    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone." - Walt Kowalski

    "Just because I don't care, doesn't mean I don't understand." - Homer Simpson

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  • SporkySporky Frets: 27573
    axisus said:
    I particularly notice that my Taylor acoustic sounds better when oldest son plays it. Jokes about how naff I am aside, I think that it's just the projection and sound quality when you are in front of it rather than behind.
    Totally. 
    Where you hear gear from has a big impact. It's why wireless is so awesome!
    They have wireless for acoustics now? :astonished: 
    "[Sporky] brings a certain vibe and dignity to the forum."
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  • TrudeTrude Frets: 914
    Sporky said:
    axisus said:
    I particularly notice that my Taylor acoustic sounds better when oldest son plays it. Jokes about how naff I am aside, I think that it's just the projection and sound quality when you are in front of it rather than behind.
    Totally. 
    Where you hear gear from has a big impact. It's why wireless is so awesome!
    They have wireless for acoustics now? :astonished: 
    Detachable hands (or ears). That's what we need! Why has nobody invented this yet??
    Some of the gear, some idea

    Trading feedback here
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  • FreebirdFreebird Frets: 5821
    edited March 2018
    p90fool said:
    That's why I often fine tune EQ settings using a looper. 
    Next step is reamping, I love playing around with whole arrangements, you can really focus on the entire sound.
    If we are not ashamed to think it, we should not be ashamed to say it.
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  • So how come guitarists spend so much time and money trying not to sound like themselves? Or in other words, trying to sound like someone else who they heroise?

    Tone cuts my hair by the way
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  • ecc83ecc83 Frets: 1589
    edited March 2018

    An extreme example of "fingers" is when Hendrix holds a note of a massive, deafening stack jeeust on the ring point but also manages subtle tonal shifts (that WORD again!) INSIDE that screaming feedback.

    AFAIK nothing non-human can do that?

    An another thing! IF you were all fiddle or cello players you wouldn't even be having this conversation..You'd KNOW!

    Dave.

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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 71956
    ecc83 said:

    An extreme example of "fingers" is when Hendrix holds a note of a massive, deafening stack jeeust on the ring point but also manages subtle tonal shifts (that WORD again!) INSIDE that screaming feedback.

    AFAIK nothing non-human can do that?

    Exactly :).

    This is also why I think Hendrix was probably the first *truly* "electric" guitar player - he didn't play an amplified guitar, he played the entire sound chain from the strings to the speakers and back via the air in a way that hadn't been done before. Although others before him had used high volume, distortion and even feedback, none that I know of really got 'inside' the sound in that sense.

    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone." - Walt Kowalski

    "Just because I don't care, doesn't mean I don't understand." - Homer Simpson

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  • lukedlblukedlb Frets: 488
    ICBM said:
    ecc83 said:

    An extreme example of "fingers" is when Hendrix holds a note of a massive, deafening stack jeeust on the ring point but also manages subtle tonal shifts (that WORD again!) INSIDE that screaming feedback.

    AFAIK nothing non-human can do that?

    Exactly :).

    This is also why I think Hendrix was probably the first *truly* "electric" guitar player - he didn't play an amplified guitar, he played the entire sound chain from the strings to the speakers and back via the air in a way that hadn't been done before. Although others before him had used high volume, distortion and even feedback, none that I know of really got 'inside' the sound in that sense.
    I completely agree. 
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  • lukedlblukedlb Frets: 488
    And there are those occasions when others sound awful through your gear. Or worse they can’t hear how great your amp is. 
    I sold an amp last week that sounded meh when I played it but was perfectly suited to the rockabilly playing style of the new owner. 
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  • prlgmnrprlgmnr Frets: 3964
    Yeah I like hearing other people play my guitars and gear, it almost makes me understand why some people like to.....never mind.
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