What is the II chord in Am?

What's Hot
FuengiFuengi Frets: 2849
Had lesson yesterday, it's makes on the sheet as Bd/m (or is it Bdim?) What is this chord?
0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom
«1

Comments

  • ArchtopDaveArchtopDave Frets: 1367
    edited March 2018
    It’s B Diminished. The notes in the chord are B, D and F - Root, Flat 3rd and Flat 5th. If you add the 7th, which in this case is a Flat 7th, then you have Bm7b5, which is a Half Diminished Chord. You are simply taking the Notes themselves from the A Minor Scale.
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 4reaction image Wisdom
  • sm55onlsm55onl Frets: 28
    edited March 2018
    I’m no expert but from doing some reading of late...

    A (natural) minor scale: A B C D E F G | A B C...(ad inifinitum)
    http://www.guitar-chords.org.uk/chords-key-a-minor.html

    Thereafter take, starting from note B (building chords via triads) each alternate note...giving the group of notes
    B D F A

    Now set the above group of notes against the B major scale (B C# D# E F# G# A#)
    http://www.guitar-chords.org.uk/guitarscales/b-major-scale.html

    B [root],
    D [flat third, b3]
    F [flat fifth, b5]
    A [flat seventh, b7]

    Thus, depending on whether a group of three notes (B D and F) or four notes (B D F A) is used then the harmonised (diatonic ?) chords will be either

    B dim
    [R, b3, b5]

    or

    B half-diminished (or named as Bmin7b5 or Bm7b5)
    [R, b3, b5, b7]

    http://www.jazzguitar.be/blog/jazz-guitar-chord-theory/


    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 1reaction image Wisdom
  • FunkfingersFunkfingers Frets: 14323
    Brian Wilson knew how to use a ii chord. :)
    Be seeing you.
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom
  • BlueingreenBlueingreen Frets: 2582
    edited March 2018
    The way I learned this was to learn the pattern of 7th chords in the major scale. IM7/IIm7/lllm7/lVM7/Vdom7/VIm7/Vllm7-5.

    (So C maj: Cmaj 7, D-7, E-7, Fmaj 7, G7, A-7, Bm7 flat 5). 

    You can remove the 7ths if you want basic triads maj/min/diminished.

    For minor keys, you use the scale from the relative major.  For Am, Cmaj.  So the same chords as above except you start with Am7 as your l chord. So Am7/Bm7-5/Cmaj 7 and so on.

    The quirk to watch out for is that often in minor keys the V chord is changed to a Dom 7: so in Am the Em7 is changed to a E7.  Strictly speaking the G sharp in an E7 isn't in the key of Am, but you get a stronger resolution to the 1 chord if the V chord is dominant.
    “To a man with a hammer every problem looks like a nail.”
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 1reaction image Wisdom
  • bigjonbigjon Frets: 680
    edited March 2018
    For most minor harmony in jazz, you should use the Harmonic minor scale eg A B C D E F G# A.
    The ii V i progression is then
    ii - B D F A = Bm7b5
    V - E G# B D = E7 as referenced by Blueingreen in the previous post.
    i - A C E (G#) = Am(maj7)

    For instance, the first 3 bars of Black Orpheus / Manha Da Carnival / Day In The Life Of A Fool are
    Am |Bm7b5 E7|Am which is
    i |ii V|i

    For most rock / blues / pop and a few bluesier jazz standards like Moondance or some versions of Summertime the chords are constructed instead from the Dorian minor scale A B C D E F# G A which gives a i chord of Am7 as before but a ii chord of B D F# A which is Bm7.
    The v chord should strictly speaking be E G B D which is Em7 but often substitutes an E7 borrowed from the Harmonic minor scale, to get a stronger harmonic pull from the V to the i.
    0reaction image LOL 1reaction image Wow! 1reaction image Wisdom
  • BoopDeWoopBoopDeWoop Frets: 101
    Or just think of the Am key being C maj. The chord after Am in C is Bdim. so if Am is I then Bdim is II and C is III. Simple.
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom
  • Jedi42Jedi42 Frets: 5
    Great comments from above. The thing about minor harmonic structures is that it can be confusing when you first start considering them as there are choices which depends on the underlying minor scale system you utilise.
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom
  • RockerRocker Frets: 4947
    I can think of only a couple of songs that use a diminished chord, 'Friends in Low Places' by Garth Brooks is one, it seems to be the forgotten chord for guitar players as a lot of songs get by using 1, 1V & V. Blues especially.

    Anyone care to suggest songs that utilise diminished chords.
    Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. [Albert Einstein]

    Nil Satis Nisi Optimum

    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom
  • FuengiFuengi Frets: 2849
    Thanks all.
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom
  • CorvusCorvus Frets: 2924
    tFB Trader

    A quick way to figure out out chords within a scale, stack thirds from a root:
    Assuming this Am scale is natural minor, going from the II note gives us B-D-F for the triad, i.e. B dim.
    Stack on another third and you get B-D-F-A, so B minor 7 flat 5, aka half-diminished.

    This works all over, take A Phrygian for something similar but slightly different ( A Bb C D E F G A ). So here your II is a Bb. A triad from stacked thirds give Bb-D-F, so Bb major. Lob another on top and Bb-D-F-A makes Bb maj 7th.

    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom
  • Rocker said:
    Anyone care to suggest songs that utilise diminished chords.

    Off the top of my head, "Lean Baby" and "Angel Eyes" and there's a few more that Frank Sinatra hosted.  "Black Coffee" sung by Ella Fitzgerald perhaps?
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom
  • EricTheWearyEricTheWeary Frets: 16253
    Rocker said:
    Anyone care to suggest songs that utilise diminished chords.

    Off the top of my head, "Lean Baby" and "Angel Eyes" and there's a few more that Frank Sinatra hosted.  "Black Coffee" sung by Ella Fitzgerald perhaps?

    IIRC, Need Your Love So Bad ( Peter Green, I think the very original was Little Willie John?). Ghost Town by The Specials. 
    Tipton is a small fishing village in the borough of Sandwell. 
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom
  • BlueingreenBlueingreen Frets: 2582
    Diminished chords are used a lot in jazz, and jazz styles of pop (eg Mac the Knife) but also early pop/rock (The Beatles use them a fair bit).  They're often a passing chord enabling a less abrupt transition between other chords.

    They are also very closely related to to dom 7 flat 9 chords, probably the most common alteration on a dom 7 chord.  A G sharp dim chord is the same as a G7b9 without the root, which means you can normally play any diminished chord containing a G sharp instead of a G7 resolving to C major or minor when comping jazz.  This may sound like a quite esoteric piece of information if you never play jazz, but in pratcice It's incredibly useful.
    “To a man with a hammer every problem looks like a nail.”
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom
  • vizviz Frets: 10647
    edited March 2018
    Rocker said:
    I can think of only a couple of songs that use a diminished chord, 'Friends in Low Places' by Garth Brooks is one, it seems to be the forgotten chord for guitar players as a lot of songs get by using 1, 1V & V. Blues especially.

    Anyone care to suggest songs that utilise diminished chords.
    There’s one on Damned Damned Damned by The Damned. @Deadman?
    Roland said: Scales are primarily a tool for categorising knowledge, not a rule for what can or cannot be played.
    Supportact said: [my style is] probably more an accumulation of limitations and bad habits than a 'style'.
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom
  • EricTheWearyEricTheWeary Frets: 16253
    Ooh, Rockin All Over the World! 
    Tipton is a small fishing village in the borough of Sandwell. 
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 1reaction image Wisdom
  • DeadmanDeadman Frets: 3852
    edited March 2018
    I wouldn't know if I was playing one @Viz! I do knock out a few off there too.
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom
  • ArchtopDaveArchtopDave Frets: 1367
    As above - plenty in the jazzier end of the spectrum.
    David Bowie : Absolute Beginners.
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom
  • Rocker said:
    I can think of only a couple of songs that use a diminished chord, 'Friends in Low Places' by Garth Brooks is one, it seems to be the forgotten chord for guitar players as a lot of songs get by using 1, 1V & V. Blues especially.

    Anyone care to suggest songs that utilise diminished chords.
    Astonishingly, 'Single Ladies' by Beyonce.
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom
  • VeganicVeganic Frets: 673
    Loads of Aztec Camera songs.
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom
  • vizviz Frets: 10647
    edited March 2018
    Deadman said:
    I wouldn't know if I was playing one @Viz! I do knock out a few off there too.
    My mistake - I was thinking of Fan club from Damned Damned Damned, but on listening to it it’s actually in Dorian so has a i minor and a ii minor.
    Roland said: Scales are primarily a tool for categorising knowledge, not a rule for what can or cannot be played.
    Supportact said: [my style is] probably more an accumulation of limitations and bad habits than a 'style'.
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom
Sign In or Register to comment.