What is the II chord in Am?

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  • flying_pieflying_pie Frets: 1806
    Rocker said:

    Anyone care to suggest songs that utilise diminished chords.
    Muse - New Born

    Extreme - More Than Words (I'm pretty sure there's a diminished arpeggio run in there when he plays it live) 
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  • Jedi42Jedi42 Frets: 5
    Depending on the scale it will be (in a 3 note diatonic system) B dim. In a four note diatonic system B min7 b5. In a harmonic diatonic system it will be the same and Bmin7 in melodic minor system (4 note).
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  • vizviz Frets: 10643
    Those aeolian progressions that back-cycle round the circle of 5ths usually get round to the ii dim eventually; Gary Moore springs to mind:

    i-iv-VII-III-VI-ii dim - V - i (Parisienne Walkways)
    iv-VII-III-VI-ii dim - V - i (Still got the Blues)


    Roland said: Scales are primarily a tool for categorising knowledge, not a rule for what can or cannot be played.
    Supportact said: [my style is] probably more an accumulation of limitations and bad habits than a 'style'.
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  • RockerRocker Frets: 4942
    viz said:
    Those aeolian progressions that back-cycle round the circle of 5ths usually get round to the ii dim eventually; Gary Moore springs to mind:

    i-iv-VII-III-VI-ii dim - V - i (Parisienne Walkways)
    iv-VII-III-VI-ii dim - V - i (Still got the Blues)


    @viz, could you please list the chords, in the order you wrote above, for Parisienne Walkways. My brain remains stubbornly out of gear today. Strangely enough I tried to play that song last night.  A minor, D minor seventh, D minor seventh/G, C major seventh..... Was I even close? Thanks.
    Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. [Albert Einstein]

    Nil Satis Nisi Optimum

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  • vizviz Frets: 10643
    edited April 2018
    Rocker said:
    viz said:
    Those aeolian progressions that back-cycle round the circle of 5ths usually get round to the ii dim eventually; Gary Moore springs to mind:

    i-iv-VII-III-VI-ii dim - V - i (Parisienne Walkways)
    iv-VII-III-VI-ii dim - V - i (Still got the Blues)


    @viz, could you please list the chords, in the order you wrote above, for Parisienne Walkways. My brain remains stubbornly out of gear today. Strangely enough I tried to play that song last night.  A minor, D minor seventh, D minor seventh/G, C major seventh..... Was I even close? Thanks.


    Sure yep and you’re right so far;

    Am
    Dm (or Dm7)
    G (or G7)
    C (or Cmaj7)
    F (or Fmaj7)
    Bdim (some people play Dm or Dm add6, but it’s really Bdim)
    E7
    Am


    It’s important that the B isn’t a “dim7” chord. Dim7 chords have a bb7 note - 1 b3 b5 bb7. The dim chord is just 1 b3 b5. 

    If you want to add a 7th you need Bm7b5, or the “half-diminished” chord, which has a minor 7th not a diminished 7th - ie an A not an Ab (G#). This is important because the chord progresses to the E7, so mustn’t already have the G# in it (which would be the major 3rd of the E7) - it should have an A in it, which comes down to a G# on the E7, and then back up for the final resolution to the A chord (and note). That gives a nice little melody within the chords. Basically it’s a ii-V-i progression. 

    Normally B half-diminished is played x2323x but I like moving from C7 (x35453) up the fretboard to Fmaj7 (x 8 10 9 10 x), and playing the Bm7b5 as 7 8 9 10 10 x. You don’t get the minor 3rd (unless you play a 10 on the top E string) but it’s a really easy convenient way of getting the diminished 5th. 
    Roland said: Scales are primarily a tool for categorising knowledge, not a rule for what can or cannot be played.
    Supportact said: [my style is] probably more an accumulation of limitations and bad habits than a 'style'.
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  • My band's single has a diminished chord right off the bat. E - Abdim - A   =)  Shameless self plug I know, but you did ask for a song that utilises it! We use them in nearly all our tracks!



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  • vizviz Frets: 10643
    edited April 2018
    My band's single has a diminished chord right off the bat. E - Abdim - A    Shameless self plug I know, but you did ask for a song that utilises it! We use them in nearly all our tracks!



    That’s beautiful and a really lovely video too. I love that puff of smoke! 

    Do you mean A#dim btw?
    Roland said: Scales are primarily a tool for categorising knowledge, not a rule for what can or cannot be played.
    Supportact said: [my style is] probably more an accumulation of limitations and bad habits than a 'style'.
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  • ToneControlToneControl Frets: 11788
    Rocker said:
    I can think of only a couple of songs that use a diminished chord, 'Friends in Low Places' by Garth Brooks is one, it seems to be the forgotten chord for guitar players as a lot of songs get by using 1, 1V & V. Blues especially.

    Anyone care to suggest songs that utilise diminished chords.
    I vaguely remembered seeing lots of them (and Aug chords) in Beatles songbooks
    googling I found this list, I haven't checked it:
    Here There and Everywhere
    Michelle
    If I Fell
    My Sweet Lord
    I Want You (She's So Heavy)
    Blue Jay Way
    And I Love Her

    this guy shoes where you can use them (basically between I and ii, and between V and VI):

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  • vizviz Frets: 10643
    edited April 2018
    Rocker said:
    I can think of only a couple of songs that use a diminished chord, 'Friends in Low Places' by Garth Brooks is one, it seems to be the forgotten chord for guitar players as a lot of songs get by using 1, 1V & V. Blues especially.

    Anyone care to suggest songs that utilise diminished chords.
    I vaguely remembered seeing lots of them (and Aug chords) in Beatles songbooks
    googling I found this list, I haven't checked it:
    Here There and Everywhere
    Michelle
    If I Fell
    My Sweet Lord
    I Want You (She's So Heavy)
    Blue Jay Way
    And I Love Her

    this guy shoes where you can use them (basically between I and ii, and between V and VI):

    Nice. Diminished and half-diminished chords seem broadly to fall into two categories - 1) where the bass note shifts up (or down) a semitone as a passing note en route to a tone above (or below), and as proper diminished chords in Locrian position like in ii(dim)-V-i progressions à la Parisienne Walkways.

    And actually there’s a 3rd category, where it sounds like a dim chord but could be considered as something else - like off the b5 of the scale where it’s very likely actually to be a II7 chord in 2nd inversion (you could consider H Phillips’s example as that) or where the Locrian triad in a major key is actually a V7 in 1st inversion. 
    Roland said: Scales are primarily a tool for categorising knowledge, not a rule for what can or cannot be played.
    Supportact said: [my style is] probably more an accumulation of limitations and bad habits than a 'style'.
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  • viz said:
    My band's single has a diminished chord right off the bat. E - Abdim - A    Shameless self plug I know, but you did ask for a song that utilises it! We use them in nearly all our tracks!



    That’s beautiful and a really lovely video too. I love that puff of smoke! 

    Do you mean A#dim btw?
    Thanks Viz, appreciate the kind words! You're absolutely right, A# it is! Was nodding off when I posted!
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