Mode Question

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  • ClarkyClarky Frets: 3261
    I've been away from this trying to get my head round it,and this just further depresses me when people with clearly a lot more knowledge than me,have different views....I joked I needed a ladybird book of modes,but in all seriousness is there an industry standard/"go to" resource on this subject? Maybe a one to one lesson with a good teacher would be the answer? 
    have you got a DAW [like Logic for example], so you can record or create backing tracks?
    play every note as if it were your first
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  • RolandRoland Frets: 8590
    edited March 2018
    Worth repeating for emphasis:
    Clarky said:
    ... actually playing matters far more than the theory...
    ... your musical instincts and intuition always come first and get the final say.. 
    ...playing always comes first... cos that's the bit you do in the studio and up on stage...
    It’s easy to get confused by modes. Particularly as there are two different methods of deriving modal scales. At the end of the day they are just theories to explain why something works.
    Tree recycler, and guitarist with  https://www.undercoversband.com/.
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  • ClarkyClarky Frets: 3261
    Roland said:
    Worth repeating for emphasis:
    Clarky said:
    ... actually playing matters far more than the theory...
    ... your musical instincts and intuition always come first and get the final say.. 
    ...playing always comes first... cos that's the bit you do in the studio and up on stage...
    It’s easy to get confused by modes. Particularly as there are two different methods of deriving modal scales. At the end of the day they are just theories to explain why something works.
    absolutely...
    a few months ago I did a session on modes with one of my students..
    after about 30 minutes he said "really? is that it?"
    face to face is so much easier..
    play every note as if it were your first
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  • UnclePsychosisUnclePsychosis Frets: 12880
    I posted this explanation before and I think people liked it:

    There are basically two ways of thinking about constructing modes: either thinking of them as modified major scales OR thinking of them as major scales starting on different notes. They give you the same results but to me it is better not to mix the two up. 

    Firstly, remember scales are always named for the note they begin with. This is important when talking about modes. 

    Take G mixolydian as an example: I think of this in two different ways. 

    The first is as a "modified major scale" in which case I know that the recipe to construct a mixolydian scale is to start from G major (G A B C D E F# G) and flatten the seventh to get to G mixolydian (G A B C D E F G). 

    The second is as a "major scale starting on a different note". In this case, I know I want G mixolydian, and I also know that G mixolydian is the same as a major scale, but starting on the fifth degree of that scale. Since I know my intervals I know G is a fifth above C, I know that G mixolydian is therefore the same notes as C major but starting on a G which gives (G A B C D E F G). 

    Similarly, for D dorian. The recipe method tells you to start with D major (D E F# G A B C# D) and flatten the third and seventh to get D Dorian (D E F G A B C D). The "major scale in a different place" method tells you that Dorian scales are a major scale but starting on the second degree of the scale, so since D is the second note of C major we again go back to the notes of C major but play them starting on D to give (D E F G A B C D). 

    Beginning to make sense? 

    Personally I prefer the "major starting in a different place" because in my head its more obvious how the different modes are linked together. For instance, its immediately obvious to me that D dorian and G mixolydian are linked harmonically because they're both C major starting on a different note. I also, personally, find it much, much easier to remember which mode is which this way round! 
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  • @unclepsychosis Thanks for that. This is all slowly but surely sinking in. I do like the two explanation theories you have given as that is one of the things that I found confusing. So its good to know that both are correct/relevant as I was thinking one was right and one was wrong but I couldn't understand why. Excellent stuff. @clarky I don't have a DAW (yet) but looking at that anyway. Why do you ask here? Would that help? Are you thinking of me laying down some chords and playing over them to experiment? I have a loop pedal which I use for that,but maybe youre thinking of it for something completely different?
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  • Axe_meisterAxe_meister Frets: 4612
    To me It's understanding the sound a certain mode/scale makes over the underlying chord.
    Now you could "stay in key, e.g. play ionian of the the I chord and say the Lydian over the 4th chord, but they sound very different. (let's assume the chord are just major triads), but you could also play the ionian over the 4th (the forth being the root) or a mixolydian. 
    It's all about where you want the melody to move. However the more notes in the chord the more constrained you are in terms of scale choice.
    Personally I find it very hard to improvise using modes but can give you great scope when composing a solo.



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  • UnclePsychosisUnclePsychosis Frets: 12880
    @unclepsychosis Thanks for that. This is all slowly but surely sinking in. I do like the two explanation theories you have given as that is one of the things that I found confusing. So its good to know that both are correct/relevant as I was thinking one was right and one was wrong but I couldn't understand why. Excellent stuff.
    -to be pedantic, the explanation is actually the secret third way that I didn't mention. That explanation is that modes are just scales in their own right - it's just a collection of musical intervals that give a particular sound. The two "explanation theories" just give you an easy way to remember the notes in each one! 
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  • ClarkyClarky Frets: 3261
    @unclepsychosis Thanks for that. This is all slowly but surely sinking in. I do like the two explanation theories you have given as that is one of the things that I found confusing. So its good to know that both are correct/relevant as I was thinking one was right and one was wrong but I couldn't understand why. Excellent stuff. @clarky I don't have a DAW (yet) but looking at that anyway. Why do you ask here? Would that help? Are you thinking of me laying down some chords and playing over them to experiment? I have a loop pedal which I use for that,but maybe youre thinking of it for something completely different?
    no prob matey...
    having a DAW means you can create simple backing tracks to play over and experiment with..
    playing with modes with context makes all the difference
    play every note as if it were your first
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  • JalapenoJalapeno Frets: 6378
    edited April 2018
    This topic always ends up with longer and longer explanations for something that ought to be straightforward.  2nd mode of CMaj is D Dorian (not C Dorian) - take it from there.

    it is valid to try out the sounds of C Dorian over CMaj etc but it'll sound odd coming as it does from Bb Maj - if quirky and odd is the effect you want  go for it !

    Arpeggios is where the cool stuff is anyway ..... <puts on tin hat>


    Modes? We don't need no steenking modes !!!!


    Imagine something sharp and witty here ......

    Feedback
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  • BarneyBarney Frets: 614
    I think an easy way to look at modes is learn the order they are in first ...play a cmaj scale and relate each each mode to each note and look at the intervals 

    So if you play cmaj7 scale from 3rd fret a string ..count up 6 for e.g. and you will have A aeolian...look at the interval and see how it relates back to the parent scale ...the interval will be the same wherever on the fret board ...so  A aeolian is same notes as c Maj...now move the A note to C one the same string now you have C aeolian with a parent scale of Eb 


    This will work with all the modes using different intervals a degrees of the scale ..this is relating back to maj scale ..eventually you will need to look at each mode from its root note ..


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  • ClarkyClarky Frets: 3261
    Barney said:
    I think an easy way to look at modes is learn the order they are in first ...play a cmaj scale and relate each each mode to each note and look at the intervals 

    So if you play cmaj7 scale from 3rd fret a string ..count up 6 for e.g. and you will have A aeolian...look at the interval and see how it relates back to the parent scale ...the interval will be the same wherever on the fret board ...so  A aeolian is same notes as c Maj...now move the A note to C one the same string now you have C aeolian with a parent scale of Eb 


    This will work with all the modes using different intervals a degrees of the scale ..this is relating back to maj scale ..eventually you will need to look at each mode from its root note ..


    I'm guessing this is a typo matey.. "cmaj7 scale"

    so just in case folk misunderstand this, C maj7 is a chord not a scale
    play every note as if it were your first
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  • BarneyBarney Frets: 614
    Clarky said:
    Barney said:
    I think an easy way to look at modes is learn the order they are in first ...play a cmaj scale and relate each each mode to each note and look at the intervals 

    So if you play cmaj7 scale from 3rd fret a string ..count up 6 for e.g. and you will have A aeolian...look at the interval and see how it relates back to the parent scale ...the interval will be the same wherever on the fret board ...so  A aeolian is same notes as c Maj...now move the A note to C one the same string now you have C aeolian with a parent scale of Eb 


    This will work with all the modes using different intervals a degrees of the scale ..this is relating back to maj scale ..eventually you will need to look at each mode from its root note ..


    I'm guessing this is a typo matey.. "cmaj7 scale"

    so just in case folk misunderstand this, C maj7 is a chord not a scale
    Yeah it is my mistake ..I should really read back what I waffle about..lol
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  • ClarkyClarky Frets: 3261
    Barney said:
    Clarky said:
    Barney said:
    I think an easy way to look at modes is learn the order they are in first ...play a cmaj scale and relate each each mode to each note and look at the intervals 

    So if you play cmaj7 scale from 3rd fret a string ..count up 6 for e.g. and you will have A aeolian...look at the interval and see how it relates back to the parent scale ...the interval will be the same wherever on the fret board ...so  A aeolian is same notes as c Maj...now move the A note to C one the same string now you have C aeolian with a parent scale of Eb 


    This will work with all the modes using different intervals a degrees of the scale ..this is relating back to maj scale ..eventually you will need to look at each mode from its root note ..


    I'm guessing this is a typo matey.. "cmaj7 scale"

    so just in case folk misunderstand this, C maj7 is a chord not a scale
    Yeah it is my mistake ..I should really read back what I waffle about..lol
    I've done exactly the same sort of thing myself...
    and will no doubt do it many times again.. lol..
    play every note as if it were your first
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  • ZenOvertoneZenOvertone Frets: 231
    I'm with a few others, the modified major scale made far more sense to me than the usual "displacing the major scale" explanation; if I'm playing in B and want to add the Mixolydian feel, i will flatten the seventh and accentuate that (even in a Blues), or sharpen the fourth to create a Lydian feel (or flatten the seventh and raise the fourth to create a Lydian Dominant feel).  Once you have a good three note per string fingering pattern down it;s easy to modify that on the fly plus it trains your ears to hear the differences and you also start to work out who uses those a lot in their playing.

    It gets more interesting when you avoid starting near root notes and span the traditional CAGED shapes (e.g. starting on the flat 7th and implying Mixolydian)    
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