Why do people use big amps?

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  • Danny1969Danny1969 Frets: 10357

    You can certainly play huge venues with small amps. The biggest indoor venue in Portsmouth is The Guildhall which holds about 2500 and I've played it 4 times with small amps, Blackstar HT-5 and my little Fender Champion below where it looks a little lost on the big stage 



    On the other end of the scale I use a 200 watt valve (100 watt a side stereo) Marshall there's been a few gigs where I've been able to open that up a bit and it's a glorious sound ..... forget your attenuators the biggest part of a cranked Marshall sound comes from the interaction of the guitar and amp out of sheer volume ... not gain 



    The stereo setup above is capable of insane volumes on it's own but I've played it through a 32KW PA and just an open G then sounds like the voice of God :~)

    Trouble is when you gig a lot, like 3 or 4 times a week you can't be standing in front of loud amps and drummers otherwise you just kill your ears. I've got plenty of friends who did it for years and their hearing loss is the price they paid for it. 

    Of course with IEM's being so common now some guys don't even use small amps or wedges ... just modeller into PA. As you get older and the gear seems to be getting heavier that starts to sound more and more appealing :)
    www.2020studios.co.uk 
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  • impmannimpmann Frets: 12644
    Danny1969 said:


    Trouble is when you gig a lot, like 3 or 4 times a week you can't be standing in front of loud amps and drummers otherwise you just kill your ears. I've got plenty of friends who did it for years and their hearing loss is the price they paid for it. 

    Of course with IEM's being so common now some guys don't even use small amps or wedges ... just modeller into PA. As you get older and the gear seems to be getting heavier that starts to sound more and more appealing :)
    This too!!

    I played with a band using Pods into the PA with IEMs. The drummer had an electronic kit. We were playing soul, ska and a bit of blues... best sound on stage, the crowd loved it and it took less than an hour to break it all down and load it into a single estate car... nice.
    Never Ever Bloody Anything Ever.

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  • impmannimpmann Frets: 12644
    I always think of it a little like cars. 95% of the time, people only need a 1L car, wherever they're driving. You can do 70+ MPH on the motorway but the car will be struggling for any additional acceleration (headroom) and nowhere to go when they need a little extra. For example, when a dick in a 3L M3 is sitting on your arse trying to push you harder (equivalent of loud drummer or knobhead guitarist who insists on using a 100W non MV amp because it's "their sound").

    More HP or watts doesn't mean you have to use it, but it's nice to know it's there if you need it.
    Yes but the dick in the M3 can be ignored - and in fact, I find its great sport to piss them off by driving exactly at the speed limits and the more they drive like dicks, the slower I go. Twunts.

    Sadly, a knobhead who plays too loud isn't quite so easy to deal with.
    Never Ever Bloody Anything Ever.

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  • steven70steven70 Frets: 1262
    edited March 2020
    ..
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  • digitalscreamdigitalscream Frets: 26453
    I generally find that the best sound is achieved by simply asking the sound guy how loud they want you, and then asking for a bit more in the monitors if required. Nothing is gained by insisting that the PA has to cope with your own definition of loudness, and all it does is piss off the one person in the whole venue who actually has control over what the audience hears.

    This is why I use a 2x12" and a 50W (actually 40W) amp which never gets close to its rated output. Well, that and the fact that I make lots of mistakes and it's nice if I'm not so far forward in the mix that people actually hear them ;)

    Of course, I should caveat this by saying that we only play venues with a house PA and sound guy.
    <space for hire>
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  • ESBlondeESBlonde Frets: 3576
    I use a larger amp because the sound is nicely dynamic. I was brunged up in an era where MP3s and generally squashed recordings onto digital format were not the norm. Even today a lot of highly technical modern tight recording sounds flat and lifeless to me. The days of being in a pub where a band played with natural dynamics and you felt envigorated are far different from today where that lovely 'mix' from pre recorded backing or MIDI is laid over by instruments running through compression. Yes it's a double edged sword, today the volume is controlled and you can hear everything nicely balanced through the PA, but having been a live engineer and owned a decent sized rig I tell you it is possible to have the best of both.
    I have also gigged with small amps where applicable, my rehearsal combo has an 8" driver and 20w, it has drowned out modest drummers before on a gig! I still prefer the (quite) sound of a bigger amp.
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  • stickyfiddlestickyfiddle Frets: 26750
    I generally find that the best sound is achieved by simply asking the sound guy how loud they want you, and then asking for a bit more in the monitors if required. Nothing is gained by insisting that the PA has to cope with your own definition of loudness, and all it does is piss off the one person in the whole venue who actually has control over what the audience hears.

    This is why I use a 2x12" and a 50W (actually 40W) amp which never gets close to its rated output. Well, that and the fact that I make lots of mistakes and it's nice if I'm not so far forward in the mix that people actually hear them ;)

    Of course, I should caveat this by saying that we only play venues with a house PA and sound guy.
    Definitely this. For me, that's a smaller amp, usually 15W or so, with a decent master volume, turned up to where the sound guy wants it and then ask for more in the monitors.

    The best live sound I ever had was a Laney VC15 with volume maybe about halfway up but micced and fully controlled. I used to get that brilliant feedback loop (guitar - amp - mic - monitor - guitar) which feels amazing but doesn't need crazy stage volumes. I loved that setup, but it needs a band who all understand how to balance a sound, and a soundman that you trust and doesn't look at you like you're nuts when you ask for "more me" in the monitors. 
    The Assumptions - UAE party band for all your rock & soul desires
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  • EricTheWearyEricTheWeary Frets: 16253
    A few ( maybe even ten ) years ago I went to see Hayseed Dixie. The support band were a 4 peice rock band and the guitarist had a Marshall stack. Anywhere within about ten feet of the stage almost all you could hear was guitar. I wasn't that interested in the band and spent part of their set wandering around the room to see where I could hear a balanced sound and it was pretty much at the back of the venue ( a place big enough for about 500 people). The people at the front may well have assumed the PA was broken.

    We play unmiced usually but try to get a sound out front that's as balanced as possible. If I had a big amp I'd have to adjust it to suit. I remember reading that Dweezil Zappa went from 'real' amps to his fractal set up primarily because he wanted people on the front row to hear the proper balanced sound of the band. Watching the recent rig rundown he did with Sweetwater there were comments about how relatively quiet it was on stage too. 
    Tipton is a small fishing village in the borough of Sandwell. 
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  • ReverendReverend Frets: 4974
    My experience is that most sound engineers care about the mix of sounds but not the actual tones created. 

    Chris Fullard mixing a band on the other hand...


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  • ReverendReverend Frets: 4974
    Oh, and I've seen a fair few bands using Kempers etc. Not many have sounded great. 
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  • earwighoneyearwighoney Frets: 3489
    Dopesick said:
    Oh man, some of you guys would hate it at a Jucifer or a Sunn 0))) gig.
    Cranked up Sunn Model T's & Attila Csihar = Perfection
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  • TTBZTTBZ Frets: 2873
    Playing live I've only ever used a 50w amp into a 2x12. We had our own PA and did our own sound in the pubs and clubs we played at but the mixer wasn't big enough for running guitars through so we never bothered. Nobody ever complained about the sound but I also  still never managed to get my amp to its sweet spot even playing a couple of bigger gigs at santa pod.

    That was in the mostly pub covers scene though, I imagine the originals is slightly different in that the venues we're going for tend to be "proper" stages and clubs with a half decent pa and monitoring. When my band starts gigging I'll be using my 20w + 2x12 to start with but if the sound guys turn out ok I'll definitely be considering a Helix and going direct with a powered monitor.
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  • lukedlblukedlb Frets: 488
    We had a three day Hendrix festival here last week. The first night had Stan skibby playing so my mate offered some of his amps and cabs. On stage was a full plexi stack run with a 50watt ‘69 head as the sound guy refused to mic a 100watt. A large venue with pro rig. 
    Only one cab was plugged in and mic’d but the stack helped with the whole effect. It sounded good in the mix and especially good live direct as i sat in the audience in its line of fire. 
    Btw, on the Sunday I heard the same head without the cabs, instead a jcm800 cab. The difference was huge. Same support act on both nights used the same amp but different cabs. Suffice to say the modern cab was utter shite and muddied the sound. 
    The 4x12 vs 1x12 debate comes down to headroom. My amps are 50 or 100 Watts, all very loud and kept to just over 1 on the volume. The space and clean are supported by pedals pushing the amp in any direction I care. I’m currently enjoying the 2x12 100 watt. Keeping it high off the ground helps maintain a low volume as I get the full whack in my ears. Instead of constantly turning up I just adjust my stage position according to the speaker direction: more volume, closer to 90 degrees, less volume closer to 45. 
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  • lukedlblukedlb Frets: 488
    I’ve never tried this: turning the cab to face the stage wall, turning up the amp and gigging on the reflected sound, which should be a little more dispersed and the highs cut. 
    Anyone ever tried such foolishness?
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  • slackerslacker Frets: 2216
    I played bass in a band in the 80 s with a good sound man. We sidewashed the amps for stage monitoring and ran a di from the bass amp pre and a 57 on the guitar speaker. We played 2 to 3 venues a week for a month. no volume issues no feedback no out of tune vocals.

    I was eating in a restaurant in Kathmandu when a band turned up. All the amps were in a rack, mixer, pa, two pods and a bass pod. Each player had a monitor and sounded great.
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  • slackerslacker Frets: 2216
    Oh I forgot every situation that sounded great had one common theme, there were no knobhead in the band.
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  • EricTheWearyEricTheWeary Frets: 16253
    lukedlb said:
    I’ve never tried this: turning the cab to face the stage wall, turning up the amp and gigging on the reflected sound, which should be a little more dispersed and the highs cut. 
    Anyone ever tried such foolishness?
    I’ve seen several people gig with their amps at the side of the stage facing across it. Presumably so they can hear themselves without blasting the front of the audience. There’s also the Springsteen method of having your Marshall cabs lying almost flat on the floor ( Bruce must play larger pubs than I do). 
    Tipton is a small fishing village in the borough of Sandwell. 
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  • StevepageStevepage Frets: 3037
    I use a 4x12 and a head. 3 pedals maximum.

    That's just about do-able. I did try a 2x12 but didn't like the tone. 

    Stage volume shouldn't be loud as you'll sound terrible in the mix but a 120watt head in to a 4x12 sounds amazing for what I do.

    However, seeing some one turn up with a fridge size rack, mission control size pedal board, Apple Mac and stage props in a tiny venue was so bad an idea I actually laughed. I've never seen some one so full of themselves too. It actually caused more hassle than it was worth and still sounded bland.
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  • ecc83ecc83 Frets: 1589

    Nobody has so far mentioned one advantage of a big (say 50W and up?) amp but whoever gave the 'car' analogy came close?

    Reliability. All else being equal, driving the tits off 2 EL84s is going to be riskier than coasting along with  2 or 4 EL34s.

    Dave.

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  • nick79nick79 Frets: 252
    I use a 25w head into a 4x12. Overkill possibly, but i like how it sounds. I can get the volume to the point where the amp is sounding good but it's not too loud. The cab gives me a 'big' sound, nice and full without being too loud. I think if i used a 1x12 i would struggle to be heard and would probably have to crank the treble up which i won't do. I do have to compete with another guitarist, so more often than not i have to go louder than i would like just have a hope in hell of actually hearing myself. Not ideal i know. 
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