Why do people use big amps?

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  • jeztone2jeztone2 Frets: 2160
    Hmmmmm

    The Marshall thing IMHO is often psychological to sound engineers though. My Blackstar Artisan 30 is far louder in 10watt mode than my Marshall TSL60 & 4 x 12 ever was. I get no shit from sound engineers nowadays because it looks less threatening. Whereas in the past I was being asked to turn it down before I’d even played a note. 

    Most guitarists.are just trying to hear themselves over the drummer. But for some reason, we get demonised more. 
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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 71959
    jeztone2 said:

    The Marshall thing IMHO is often psychological to sound engineers though. My Blackstar Artisan 30 is far louder in 10watt mode than my Marshall TSL60 & 4 x 12 ever was. I get no shit from sound engineers nowadays because it looks less threatening. Whereas in the past I was being asked to turn it down before I’d even played a note.
    I once wheeled a Marshall 4x12" onto the stage and a voice came over the monitors... "you're too loud!"

    I knew the sound engineer - although until that point I didn't realise he was doing the gig - and he was just having a bit of fun, and he knew the joke very well... but there's a grain of truth in it.

    (Although to be accurate, I think *any* valve guitar amp is louder than TSL60. It's the weakest-sounding "60W" amp I've ever heard.)

    jeztone2 said:

    Most guitarists.are just trying to hear themselves over the drummer. But for some reason, we get demonised more. 
    Partly because the drummer doesn't put the source of the sound on the floor where he can't hear it, and then produce a beam of death out into the audience because he doesn't realise how loud and trebly it is...

    It baffles me that there are still guitar players doing this. Raising the amp up, tilting it back, pointing it sideways, or any combination of those *always* sounds better and makes it easier to mix as well as much easier to hear.

    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone." - Walt Kowalski

    "Just because I don't care, doesn't mean I don't understand." - Homer Simpson

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  • VoxmanVoxman Frets: 4718
    Fez said:
     
    The idea of using a modeller and not lugging heavy valve amps around does have some appeal I have heard good sounds from modellers though in my head the jury is still out as to whether it's for me or not.
    I've really moved away from amps over recent years not least because of weight..I just can't carry the weight like I could when I was younger.  Nowadays its normally  one of my Tonelabs through the PA unless there's no PA when I'll use a smaller amp such as my Cub, dsl401 or VC30-210. 
    I started out with nothing..... but I've still got most of it left (Seasick Steve)
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  • KalimnaKalimna Frets: 1534
    Possibly going off at a tangent here, but would it be of use to angle the speaker in a 1x12 cab/combo up towards the player rather than being perpendicular to the floor? 
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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 71959
    Kalimna said:
    Possibly going off at a tangent here, but would it be of use to angle the speaker in a 1x12 cab/combo up towards the player rather than being perpendicular to the floor? 
    Like this?

    https://thumbs.worthpoint.com/zoom/images4/360/1213/29/superb-wood-surround-boxer-60-watt_360_b3af708b124f0d1bd05a585510a4ed2b.jpg

    Yes.

    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone." - Walt Kowalski

    "Just because I don't care, doesn't mean I don't understand." - Homer Simpson

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  • KalimnaKalimna Frets: 1534
    Yes, that's exactly what i was picturing mentally. 
    Is there any downside to a cabinet structured in this way?
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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 71959
    Kalimna said:
    Yes, that's exactly what i was picturing mentally. 
    Is there any downside to a cabinet structured in this way?
    Not that I can think of. If anything it should be slightly stronger.

    The only problem I can think of with building it like that is than in a valve combo, it will conflict with the components on the underside of the chassis. That amp is solid-state.

    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone." - Walt Kowalski

    "Just because I don't care, doesn't mean I don't understand." - Homer Simpson

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  • martinwmartinw Frets: 2149
    tFB Trader
    shaunm said:
    I also jumper the inputs so I plug into the top left and use a patch from top right to bottom left.
    Try *not* jumpering the inputs, but wind up the volume on the 'unused' channel.
    The channels on the JTM are interactive even when not jumpered, and you might find this thickens the sound just enough for you. Put it on max if you need to.
    The JTM doesn't need much from the normal channel, so its often enough this way.
    The 5E3 Deluxe is the same, as in another thread.

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  • ricorico Frets: 1220
    I recently made the change from a JCM800 50w head to a (probably) 100w Matamp. The reason being was that the 800 just didn't have the oomph for thick, downtuned fuzz riffs. The downside is that the Matamp head is double the size and weight of the 800 head (it's deeper than it is high!) and weighs around 25kg but it's a price I happily pay. The transformers are the size of a small house!
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  • lukedlblukedlb Frets: 488
    What is the preferred method to raise an amp? I have a head and 2x12 cab. Using the cab’s flight case? A pub table? A fold up chair? Is there a dedicated solution? I know there is a triangle device to angle amps up from the floor. I wouldn’t want to rely on sometime that could shake or cause unwelcome reverberations. 
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  • vasselmeyervasselmeyer Frets: 3664
    lukedlb said:
    What is the preferred method to raise an amp? I have a head and 2x12 cab. Using the cab’s flight case? A pub table? A fold up chair? Is there a dedicated solution? I know there is a triangle device to angle amps up from the floor. I wouldn’t want to rely on sometime that could shake or cause unwelcome reverberations. 
    I have a 2x12 cab and most of the time I stand it vertically for space reasons. If we play somewhere that will allow me to use it horizontally  I'll either snag an empty crate from the pub or requisition one of their tables. It really doesn't matter what it is as long as vibrations won't make it fall and you don't cover the back up (for either ventilation or changing the sound of an open-backed unit).
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  • JayGeeJayGee Frets: 1254
    lukedlb said:
    What is the preferred method to raise an amp? I have a head and 2x12 cab. Using the cab’s flight case? A pub table? A fold up chair? Is there a dedicated solution? I know there is a triangle device to angle amps up from the floor. I wouldn’t want to rely on sometime that could shake or cause unwelcome reverberations. 
    I have a 2x12 cab and most of the time I stand it vertically for space reasons. 
    Wisdom duly awarded. I’ve actually added an extra set of feet to one end of my cab.

    https://i.imgur.com/z2WN6YD.jpg

    Actually I kind of wonder if habitually using the cab like this is why I’ve never experienced the directionality and projection issues which @ICBM reports as being characteristic of Marshall 1936 cabs, it definitely sounds way better and more consistent between on-stage and in the room that way...
    Don't ask me, I just play the damned thing...
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  • lukedlblukedlb Frets: 488
    lukedlb said:
    What is the preferred method to raise an amp? I have a head and 2x12 cab. Using the cab’s flight case? A pub table? A fold up chair? Is there a dedicated solution? I know there is a triangle device to angle amps up from the floor. I wouldn’t want to rely on sometime that could shake or cause unwelcome reverberations. 
    I have a 2x12 cab and most of the time I stand it vertically for space reasons. If we play somewhere that will allow me to use it horizontally  I'll either snag an empty crate from the pub or requisition one of their tables. It really doesn't matter what it is as long as vibrations won't make it fall and you don't cover the back up (for either ventilation or changing the sound of an open-backed unit).
    I forgot about the beer crate trick. I’ve been out of the game too long. 
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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 71959
    lukedlb said:
    What is the preferred method to raise an amp? I have a head and 2x12 cab. Using the cab’s flight case? A pub table? A fold up chair? Is there a dedicated solution? I know there is a triangle device to angle amps up from the floor. I wouldn’t want to rely on sometime that could shake or cause unwelcome reverberations. 
    I always used the amp's flightcase (just the lid usually) when I was using bigger amps. Its the ideal size and very stable.

    JayGee said:

    Actually I kind of wonder if habitually using the cab like this is why I’ve never experienced the directionality and projection issues which @ICBM reports as being characteristic of Marshall 1936 cabs, it definitely sounds way better and more consistent between on-stage and in the room that way...
    Yes, a vertical 2x12" is far less directional than horizontal - I know that's counterintuitive. It also raises the top speaker up to about the right height where it correlates well with the out-front sound.

    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone." - Walt Kowalski

    "Just because I don't care, doesn't mean I don't understand." - Homer Simpson

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  • JayGeeJayGee Frets: 1254
    ICBM said:
    Yes, a vertical 2x12" is far less directional than horizontal - I know that's counterintuitive. It also raises the top speaker up to about the right height where it correlates well with the out-front sound.
    It’s your line array thing isn’t it, which is why PA columns were a thing back in the day...

    The more I think of it the more reasons I can see why a vertical 2x12 on the floor is A Good Thing compared with a horizontal 2x12 on the floor. You get a smaller on-stage footprint, enhanced dispersion, the cab coupling to the floor for more bottom end, and a driver in free air at the right height for the top end. What’s not to love?
    Don't ask me, I just play the damned thing...
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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 71959
    JayGee said:

    It’s your line array thing isn’t it, which is why PA columns were a thing back in the day...

    The more I think of it the more reasons I can see why a vertical 2x12 on the floor is A Good Thing compared with a horizontal 2x12 on the floor. You get a smaller on-stage footprint, enhanced dispersion, the cab coupling to the floor for more bottom end, and a driver in free air at the right height for the top end. What’s not to love?
    Some people think it looks silly :).

    I can't think of anything else though... but in fact, depending on the type of music, the cab coupling to the floor isn't always a good thing. I've always found that the band mix is improved when the cab is decoupled, which rolls off the bottom octave and stops the guitar fighting with the bass - the bass cab needs to be tight down of course, so it *is* coupled. That way you get a more natural separation between the two instruments and both are audible better without the volumes and EQ mattering as much.

    But of course, you can always raise your vertical cab slightly as well, if you want - it doesn't take much, even a few inches will usually do it.

    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone." - Walt Kowalski

    "Just because I don't care, doesn't mean I don't understand." - Homer Simpson

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  • digitalscreamdigitalscream Frets: 26453
    edited May 2018
    Fez said:
    We don't play many places where there is a PA so we mostly use our own rig vocals and sax. Last night the pub had mounted Mackie 450's (great no effing tripods) we used our desk and monitors I took my B rig 'cos the stage was small (DSL401 + 1x12 extension on top of it). I think I could get away with the Jet City 50w and 2x12 set vertical. I find I need 50w or thereabouts as I need a good clean sound so I tend to get drive from pedals. 
    I've never found a situation where a JCA50H wasn't appropriate, to be honest. It's got much better control at the low end of the volume control than the 20W versions, and more than enough volume for the biggest venues. I've played mine at everything from tiny pubs to big-ish festivals, with the O2 Academy in Birmingham in between.

    'course, now I'm Helixed-up, I'm going to be playing most gigs with the soon-to-arrive DXR10 either as a monitor with PA assistance, or as backline when the PA's not up to it. That's 1100W and a maximum 131dB SPL (apparently), and I make no apology for it D
    <space for hire>
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  • springheadspringhead Frets: 1583
    I saw JD Simo at the Barfly in Camden a couple of years ago.  Old JTM 45 up loud into a 2 x 12 pointed off stage.  He plugged a vintage LP into it, no pedals and sounded fantastic.  Not horrendously loud and got a wonderful range of clean to very dirty with just pickup selection and the guitars volume/tone controls.  Didn't touch the amp all night.  Wonderful example of what a skilled player can do.
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  • ReverendReverend Frets: 4974
    rico said:
    I recently made the change from a JCM800 50w head to a (probably) 100w Matamp. The reason being was that the 800 just didn't have the oomph for thick, downtuned fuzz riffs. The downside is that the Matamp head is double the size and weight of the 800 head (it's deeper than it is high!) and weighs around 25kg but it's a price I happily pay. The transformers are the size of a small house!

    Presumably a horizontal input. my 100w 2203 has more low end than I need for doom. I usually have he bass on about 12 o'clock.
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  • guitarfishbayguitarfishbay Frets: 7953
    I use big amps because they sound better for my needs.  They have volume knobs and I'm not going for power amp distortion so it makes no difference how loud it could get.  

    My solution to not being able to hear my 2x12 properly was to buy a second one and put it on top of the first.  The bottom one is on casters to keep things a little tighter and to make it easier to transport.  
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