2 subs or 1?

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  • JetfireJetfire Frets: 1687
    School me on line array?
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  • robinbowesrobinbowes Frets: 3021
    Forget about line arrays. If you need one, hire one :)

    https://www.soundonsound.com/techniques/line-arrays-explained
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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 71950
    The singer is right. Subs will help.

    Mostly already said, but...

    One of the most important reasons for using subs is to take the lowest frequencies - especially the kick drum if it's mic'ed, but also the lowest frequencies of the bass - out of the top cabinets. As robinbowes said, don't even think about putting kick drum and bass through the PA with only tops, even with 15" speakers - these need huge amounts of energy and cone movement to stay clean, and full-range cabs usually can't properly reproduce the transients at those frequencies, so if you put them into the tops, the result is mud and less available power for the rest of the mix - plus additional strain on the amp which is having to work even harder to try to produce those lows when the cabinets aren't very efficient that low down, so the temptation is to turn the bass up. If you use subs you can cut off the lows from everything going into the top cabs, which will give more power and clarity for everything which is in them, including the vocals - so it will improve the vocal sound even though no frequency from the vocals goes through them.

    Two subs aren't really necessary in a small room because they're not very directional, but I would have two if you can because:

    You can get a bit more low-end power if you want it.
    If you don't, then each one will be running more conservatively and so is likely to be more reliable.
    You have a backup if one does go down.
    They make excellent stands for the tops - more stable than the average tripod while taking up less space on stage.

    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone." - Walt Kowalski

    "Just because I don't care, doesn't mean I don't understand." - Homer Simpson

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  • firepaulmusicfirepaulmusic Frets: 362
    Oh my God, just use two subs all the time! I'm leathered in Tenerife so excuse my bluntness..
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  • John_PJohn_P Frets: 2744
    It would have to be pretty small rooms to get away with just a pair of srm450’s imo. 
    A pair of subs with one on each would start to be workable but as said above I’d go with the 18’s rather 15 if you can.  

    I use HK but I run two subs on each side as standard leaving the tops to do the mid and high without straining them.    
    You don’t have to turn them up full just add in what you need for the gig. 
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  • JetfireJetfire Frets: 1687
    Oh my God, just use two subs all the time! I'm leathered in Tenerife so excuse my bluntness..
    Itz ok, Im in italy lol!!
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  • CabicularCabicular Frets: 2214
    Jetfire said:
    C) our singers a headcase so best steer clear.
    She sounds like they only one of you who knows what their doing tbh
    sorry bit harsh but she is right ...
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  • JetfireJetfire Frets: 1687
    Shes still a head case
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  • ESBlondeESBlonde Frets: 3576
    One sub/bass can relieves the load on the the tops a little bit but not much. Mix the vocalist prominent and sacrifice guitar tone in the pa to voice clarity. Two subs on the floor and beside one another are classed as half loaded. This means they couple together and help one another be more efficient than one each side of the stage. Having them next to a wall too gives them even more efficiently,  buy outdoors definitely place them together. 
    Flashing LED warning lights are just that so reducing other instruments to allow full dynamic for vocals can work. Ensure the wedge for the singer blows her head off so she has confidence,  it also adds some to the FOG sound for a slight boost if not of the best clarity ( time delayed to the audience ear).
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  • John_AJohn_A Frets: 3775
    Another sub will help.  As ICBM says, it will take some strain from the tops and allow the vocals to be heard better.  However if you are putting guitars, bass, drums, backing vocals through the PA you may just be asking too much of it..  What are you putting through it?

    Bottom line is if the vocals are getting lost and you have no headroom to turn them up you need to turn everything else down.  The lead singer is the most important part of the band to your average punter (we all know it's really the guitarist ;))  and should be the priority
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  • JetfireJetfire Frets: 1687
    Ive given this some thought recently.

    We have a couple of options available to us:
    Option 1:
    Bass player uses his 2 speaker cabs each side of the stage 
    Vocals into FOH
    Guitars into FOH
    Bass drum and pad into FOH

    Option 2:
    Bass player uses his 2 speaker cabs each side of the stage
    Vocals into FOH
    Guitars into 2 yamaha dxr10s positioned each side of the stage
    Bass drum and drum pad into FOH

    Option 3
    Bass into FOH
    Guitar into FOH
    Vocals into FOH
    Bass drum and drum pad into FOH

    In my opinion, all options would need a sub. However, option 2 would be be alot less strain on the pa (with sub).  And give clarity. I just wanted to ensure we had a nice spread and people could hear the band rather than being blasted.

    Also, if option 2 was employed, myself and the bassist wouldnt have to do anything with the sub in terms of transporting it and storing it as our singer wont touch it and nor will our drummer. Thats the real problem with all of this really.

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  • John_PJohn_P Frets: 2744
    I wouldn’t complicate it.   Either you want to play at a volume that needs a bigger PA so you have subs and run everyone through it.  Or you play quieter and have a vocal PA and backline.   
    The amount of each instrument in the PA might change spending on the size of the room but I’d have a standard way to set up and keep life simple.  
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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 71950
    Jetfire said:

    Option 1:
    Bass player uses his 2 speaker cabs each side of the stage
    Why? The bass will sound better if the cabs are together. Bass is fairly undirectional, but can suffer from phase cancellation if the cabs are widely separated.

    What I would do is:

    PA with 2 subs.
    Bass amp, with one or two cabs where the bass player is.
    Guitar amps, where the guitar players are - preferably raised/tilted/pointing slightly sideways.
    Vocals, guitars, bass, kick drum into the PA.
    Monitors, with mostly vocals in and only just enough of anything else you can't hear properly.

    There is a reason why this is the absolutely standard set-up.

    If you can't persuade other band members to pull their weight regarding carrying the gear, you have three options - carry it yourself and accept that it's worth it to improve the sound of the band; have the band sound shit; insist that the singer helps carry the subs, since she's the one who wants them. Fair enough if the drummer doesn't, he/she has a drum kit to carry and set up.

    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone." - Walt Kowalski

    "Just because I don't care, doesn't mean I don't understand." - Homer Simpson

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  • robinbowesrobinbowes Frets: 3021
    IMHO, you've got a vocal PA. Anything more than adding a slight spread of anything else will overwhelm the vocals.

    I had a similar discussion with my band recently. We talked about getting our own PA and looked at various cheaper options similar to the Mackie SRM450. Our drummer wanted kick in the PA. I said, if we're in a venue large enough to require drums in the PA then we need a bigger PA than that.

    I ended up buying a HK Power Pack, plus a Yamaha TF-Rack desk + TIO1608D stage box. Not cheap, but it's more suited to the task of amplifying a full band (we're 8/9 piece, drums, bass, guitar, keys, accordion, harmonica, 5 vocals). Even with this rig, I back off the drums and the backline to keep the vocals effortlessly on top of the mix.

    In your situation, I'd do something like this:
    • use both subs (for reasons explained by @ICBM earlier)
    • start with just vocals in the mix
    • listen to how it sounds
    • what's missing?
    • add a bit of what's missing to the mix
    Without knowing your band style, and making assumptions about equipment, I would add this:
    • I'd be surprised if you need bass in the mix
    • Keeping the guitar quiet on stage and in the PA can improve things onstage
    • A couple of mics on the drums can be very effective - kick, and overhead. Don't have them too loud but it can add a bit of "something" to the sound.
    Most importantly, don't play too loudly. A smaller PA pushed to its limits will sound dreadful.

    HTH,

    R.
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  • JetfireJetfire Frets: 1687
    Just for full info, My guitar amp is a helix into a Yamaha dxr10 at the moment so i tend to put that speaker pointing at me for monitoring. Myself and the bassist have just bought IEMs which will be arriving soon. I guess it depends on venue but ill be taking the sub this weekend and hopefully end up dropping the use of the yamaha as Ill have IEMs.
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  • JetfireJetfire Frets: 1687
    So last night I took our sub along and set it all up. When we sound checked, we did a basic volume with just vocals in the pa, bass and guitar via our own speakers and no kick drum via front of house. Sounded ok but no bass drum definition so turned the sub up, high pass filter on the tops and upped the sub so the pa carried abit of everything. The spread was nice and we sounded good.

    Thanks for all the sensible advice!
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