Neck pocket too tight.

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My bits-o-caster build is making more progress with the arrival of more parts. My body arrived today and it looks pretty good but the neck pocket is a tad too tight for the neck I have. 

The neck is pretty standard at 56mm width but I reckon the pocket on the body is about 55mm at best, so I need to shave a bit out. 

How?

Not so much what method to use but how to accurately measure since I have no centrelines on the body to measure from?

Should I just build a jig to shave 0.5mm off each edge of the pocket with a router or is there a better/easier way to go about this?

TIA

There is no 'H' in Aych, you know that don't you? ~ Wife

Turns out there is an H in Haych! ~ Sporky

Bit of trading feedback here.

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Comments

  • WezVWezV Frets: 16542
    if the neck is unfinished some find sanding the sides easier.   I much prefer doing it on the pocket with a router, but i would only recommend it if you are familiar with router template work
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  • HaychHaych Frets: 5594
    edited June 2018
    WezV said:
    if the neck is unfinished some find sanding the sides easier.   I much prefer doing it on the pocket with a router, but i would only recommend it if you are familiar with router template work
    Unfortunately the neck is nitro-finished otherwise I might have gone that way. 

    I have done some routing before so might build (or buy) a neck pocket jig. 

    I’m more concerned about being able to get the mod accurate and not shave more off one side than the other and then have an out of alignment neck joint. 

    There is no 'H' in Aych, you know that don't you? ~ Wife

    Turns out there is an H in Haych! ~ Sporky

    Bit of trading feedback here.

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  • fandangofandango Frets: 2204
    Just a thought, but the other way of looking at the problem is that the neck is too big.

    Regardless, surely it's more sensible to shave wood off the cheaper item (neck)?
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  • GoldenEraGuitarsGoldenEraGuitars Frets: 8820
    edited June 2018 tFB Trader
    .
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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 71953
    Haych said:

    Unfortunately the neck is nitro-finished otherwise I might have gone that way. 

    I have done some routing before so might build (or buy) a neck pocket jig. 

    I’m more concerned about being able to get the mod accurate and not shave more off one side than the other and then have an out of alignment neck joint. 
    This is the problem - it's going to be difficult to get it right without an accurate jig. It's not just the amount to take off on each side, but also that the side walls (bass especially) need to be correctly aligned.

    Modding the body is the *right* way to do it though. If you sand the neck, in theory you need to taper the whole thing or there will be an odd change of angle at the pocket join, and you will probably cause problems with the string spacing.

    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone." - Walt Kowalski

    "Just because I don't care, doesn't mean I don't understand." - Homer Simpson

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  • Jimbro66Jimbro66 Frets: 2418
    I’ve had this problem a couple of times. It seems that a well-known body maker sends them out with pockets 55mm wide. The advice I was given was to route out the extra width but I lacked a template and, frankly, the confidence to remove such a small amount cleanly.

    In both cases the under-width pocket was central so I needed remove only 0.5mm each side. To do that I took a 300mm length of 23x23mm timber, rounded the ends to match the end radius of the pocket then cut and glued 3M medium abrasive paper to the wood. Then carefully moved the timber back and forth along each side of the pocket, taking care not to rock the timber and keeping even pressure. I’d marked the 0.5mm line on the top of the body each side of the pocket with tape. This method took patience but soon removed the required amount.

    I wouldn’t do that to make a greater enlargement but for only 0.5mm it worked fine both times. I certainly wouldn’t mess around with the neck, particularly not a nitro finished one.
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  • GoldenEraGuitarsGoldenEraGuitars Frets: 8820
    edited June 2018 tFB Trader
    Haych said:
    My bits-o-caster build is making more progress with the arrival of more parts. My body arrived today and it looks pretty good but the neck pocket is a tad too tight for the neck I have. 

    The neck is pretty standard at 56mm width but I reckon the pocket on the body is about 55mm at best, so I need to shave a bit out. 

    How?

    Not so much what method to use but how to accurately measure since I have no centrelines on the body to measure from?

    Should I just build a jig to shave 0.5mm off each edge of the pocket with a router or is there a better/easier way to go about this?

    TIA
    Out of interest? Guitarbuild unfinished body vs an AllParts nitro finished neck?

    strat or tele?
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  • CasperCasterCasperCaster Frets: 760
    edited June 2018
    A few thoughts:

    Firstly, if the body is from GuitarBuild then also check the depth of the neck rout - some people feel it isn't deep enough, and that the neck sits too high and consequently the bridge/saddles sit too high as well - better to deal with any necessary template making and routing all in one go.

    Next, is it a Tele style neck or Strat style? 

    If it's a Tele then making a template from your actual neck, to rout the body is fairly easy with a bit of MDF and a few bits of strip wood. Although the neck tapers, it is all straight edges, and the radius in the corners will be determined by the radius of router bit. In use, I'd trust my eyes to align the template, principally using the back edge of the neck rout and the bass side as reference, setting directly against the back edge but with a fractional gap on the bass side (that being about 0.5mm for you given dimensions).

    If it's a Strat then the curve at the end of the neck pocket unfortunately makes creating a template more complicated. In that situation  I'd probably use the body and a laminate trimmer bit to create a 1:1 copy of the neck rout in MDF, then use a dissimilar combination of bit and bearing to create a second template in MDF e.g. 12mm diam bearing on 13mm diam  bit, such that second cut is 0.5mm (radius) bigger all round. Once I had a template I was happy with I'd then proceed with routing as per the Tele described above.
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  • GoldenEraGuitarsGoldenEraGuitars Frets: 8820
    tFB Trader
    I use GB bodies for everything I do and there hasn’t been a single issue with the neck pocket. The issue here, as per usual with self builds is people tend to purchase ready finished necks and unfinished bodies.

    Bodies seem to be less scary to finish than necks. The butt of the neck has finish on it which is preventing it from fitting, the best way to get a proper fit is to have both neck and body unfinished to allow you to see what has to be done. These parts are also from different suppliers so a 56mm heel will probably now be wider thanks to the finish applied. 

    If you have a snug fit when both items are unfinished then you have a winning formula. Apply virtually no finish to the butt of the neck. Judging by the original comments by @Haych  it seems the neck pocket measurement is a guess. I’ll bet the neck heel is over 56mm due to the finish on it. I’d get an unfinished neck and go from there
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  • HaychHaych Frets: 5594
    The width of the pocket at the point of the rear neck screws is 55.56mm, the width of the neck in the same place is 56.02mm.

    The neck and the body are both finished although there is no finish applied to the inside of the neck pocket.

    So, there's not that much to shave off either side of the pocket, but there is just enough to prevent to two parts fitting together.  If I was bloody minded I could probably force them together but I reckon that would make a mess of things and leave me even more work.

    At this point I'm tempted to shave it all off the bass side since the pocket on the treble side is already cut to allow the edge of the neck to sit flush with the body - trying to shave equal amounts of either side of the pocket will probably leave me with a bit of a ledge as the neck will overhang the body on the treble side, albeit only very slight and probably imperceptibly, but still, why make things difficult when they don't need to be.

    While the trem cavity is routed (that's probably going to need modifying too) there aren't any mounting holes drilled so I can adjust the position of the trem fitment to compensate if necessary, same with the pickguard.

    Sound feasible or have I missed something?

    There is no 'H' in Aych, you know that don't you? ~ Wife

    Turns out there is an H in Haych! ~ Sporky

    Bit of trading feedback here.

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  • Bond123Bond123 Frets: 4
    If you buy a body that's a standard Fender shape one should surely expect the neck pocket to be the correct width and the correct depth. If not, why don't you send it back?
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  • CasperCasterCasperCaster Frets: 760
    Having now looked at the measurements you provided there is basically a discrepancy of about 0.5mm between the two components, (0.25mm each side of the neck) . That assumes those numbers are accurate and consistent along the length of the neck rout. Thats tiny, and not unusual for parts from two different sources, but annoying as it's just enough to stop them being used together (also, I'd say it's the finished neck that is too wide, not the body that's too narrow).

    Given the small difference I think I would probably try some very slow careful sanding with fine grit paper to remove lacquer from the neck. I know you said its tinted, but I would expect the top coats to be clear, and if you measure carefully and mask an area so that you only sand where absolutely needed I think it would be a lot less faff than routing. Of course, sand both sides of the neck the same but stop if you see tinted dust or other evidence that you are into the tinted coats of lacquer.

    If you rout from the bass side as you suggested, then everything else needs to move to the bass side. You've realised this with your comments about the bridge, but the pickguard/pickups also need to move over fractionally, potentially the mount holes in the neck too etc. 

    Just my thoughts.
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  • WezVWezV Frets: 16542
    edited June 2018
    Bond123 said:
    If you buy a body that's a standard Fender shape one should surely expect the neck pocket to be the correct width and the correct depth. If not, why don't you send it back?


    More and more people seem to expect this.   Sadly, Its not been the way guitar parts have ever worked.     I would even say part of the fun of the challenge is making parts fit... but maybe that's just because I am conditioned into it.


    You should expect that a body and neck from the same source will fit together without additional work, but even then wood movement and finish can affect how well they fit together.  

    You should not expect that a body and neck from different sources will fit together.  

    Nor should you expect that different Fender parts from different era's will fit together


    In both cases you should ask for measurements or accept the difference



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  • GoldenEraGuitarsGoldenEraGuitars Frets: 8820
    tFB Trader
    Bond123 said:
    If you buy a body that's a standard Fender shape one should surely expect the neck pocket to be the correct width and the correct depth. If not, why don't you send it back?
    Unfortunately it doesn’t work like that. And I know how common it is for people to assume this. You should pretty much accept that the parts probably won’t fit together and that a little doctoring will be required. 

    If you buy a cheaper neck covered in polyurethane it’s safe to assume it won’t be 56mm. 
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  • gavin_axecastergavin_axecaster Frets: 526
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    As said above, buying from different manufacturers can require a little effort to get everything to fit. Even buying from the same manufacturer can have issues - Allparts necks and bodies are the tightest fit I've ever seen and definitely require a little work before finishing to avoid splitting the neck pocket. (Necks made in Japan, bodies in the USA)

    Allparts neck heels are very slightly wider than standard Fender spec. Always have been. Perhaps it is due to the Japanese using metric measurements, I don't know. However that does mean you need to dry fit an Allparts neck in the intended body before finishing so you can make any adjustments that may be necessary (and also why i prefer selling unfinished necks for the most part).

    Different manufacturers have different tolerances, sometimes down to their source material of their specs (T. Downs blueprint v measuring a vintage instrument), sometimes to preference - the internet has made having a tight neck fit the mythical holy grail* and a mfctr may add a few thousands to give that tight fit. Then there's how sharp are the router bits cutting the pieces, or have they been resharpened a few too many times and are now out of tolerance etc.

    Fender don't license bodies, they only license the headstock shapes. (There is no requirement in the neck license agreement for any specs/sizes for anything - the closest thing is a quality control clause.) So there is no such thing as a Fender licensed replacement body, just Fender bodies or aftermarket bodies. Still you can find plenty of examples of variance in tolerance of neck pocket fits on new Fender guitars online.

    The neck pocket measurement on the original blueprint of the Telecaster (drawn by Freddie Tavares) is 2.2 inch, or 55.88mm in new money. That's only 0.3mm bigger than the official spec for the heel of 55.56mm (2 3/16 inch) but I bet someone on TDPRI would call that a "gap" and complain it would rob them of tone! (I jest...)

    *I'm not denigrating the desire for a tight fitting neck - it is nice, but not essential.



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  • Bond123Bond123 Frets: 4

    All that you have been saying is fine that mixing and matching can be a problem but @Haych has stated the measurement of the neck pocket is 55.56mm which is wrong, it should be 56mm. This has surely got to be put down to bad machining and poor quality control. Remember this is not the first time we've had postings about this problem from this particular manufacturer. Although all the help and suggestions you're giving to put this right are fine, surely the answer is to make it right at the manufacturing stage. I still say if you buy a standard Fender body it should have the correct width and depth of the neck pocket. If it isn't then it should be sent back. If all the members of the Forum who have had this problem with the neck pocket had sent the bodies back the manufacturer might get the message that they are doing it wrong.

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  • HaychHaych Frets: 5594
    Bond123 said:

    All that you have been saying is fine that mixing and matching can be a problem but @Haych has stated the measurement of the neck pocket is 55.56mm which is wrong, it should be 56mm. This has surely got to be put down to bad machining and poor quality control. Remember this is not the first time we've had postings about this problem from this particular manufacturer. Although all the help and suggestions you're giving to put this right are fine, surely the answer is to make it right at the manufacturing stage. I still say if you buy a standard Fender body it should have the correct width and depth of the neck pocket. If it isn't then it should be sent back. If all the members of the Forum who have had this problem with the neck pocket had sent the bodies back the manufacturer might get the message that they are doing it wrong.

    Which particular manufacturer? I wasn’t aware I’d stated where the body came from?  I admit I have the memory of a goldfish so apologies if I’m wrong. 

    After everything thats been said though, I’d rather have the pocket too tight than one that’s too big (no jokes please). 

    There is no 'H' in Aych, you know that don't you? ~ Wife

    Turns out there is an H in Haych! ~ Sporky

    Bit of trading feedback here.

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  • GoldenEraGuitarsGoldenEraGuitars Frets: 8820
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    I watched a Phil X video this morning, he was playing an early 50s Esquire. Unless it was just the camera angle it looked like you could have put a pound coin down between the neck and body. It sounded great, obviously.



    Bond123 said:

    All that you have been saying is fine that mixing and matching can be a problem but @Haych has stated the measurement of the neck pocket is 55.56mm which is wrong, it should be 56mm. This has surely got to be put down to bad machining and poor quality control. Remember this is not the first time we've had postings about this problem from this particular manufacturer. Although all the help and suggestions you're giving to put this right are fine, surely the answer is to make it right at the manufacturing stage. I still say if you buy a standard Fender body it should have the correct width and depth of the neck pocket. If it isn't then it should be sent back. If all the members of the Forum who have had this problem with the neck pocket had sent the bodies back the manufacturer might get the message that they are doing it wrong.


    You know.. my last fender Strat (2007 US standard) was a beautiful instrument. Candy cola, rosewood neck.. typical stratty strat (is that even a thing?). I subsequently sold it told help fund the business. But I was doing a mock up one day with a neck I had finished and decided to remove the neck from my fender to take a picture. When I unscrewed the neck it slumped down immediately. Visually, it was a neat fit but when not screwed in it was having none of it. I took the neck off and put the one I had just finished in. I was able to pick the guitar up with the neck (no screws attached) and wave it around. It wasn’t going anywhere.

    So... my guess is the guy who finished the heel of the neck in the US was a little heavy handed on the sanding? Either that or fender are responsible for “bad machining and poor QC”. I don’t think I’ve ever seen or heard a bad word against fender for QC at all, in actual fact. 

    What i I can say for certain is the fender neck was made in America, the neck I finished was made in Japan. Two necks, two fits. 

    There will never be identical spec pieces made by different manufacturers in different countries using different machines and tooling. I’m baffled as to why you think that they should all retrofit each other without ANY tweaking what so ever. 


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  • prowlaprowla Frets: 4896
    I was chatting with a professional guitar maker last weekend about neck pockets and he said that a tight fitting pocket is not desirable, but that wood-on-wood between the neck and base of the pocket is.

    I was asking him about a neck for a Fender MIM body I have which seems to have a slightly too narrow pocket.
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  • SteveRobinsonSteveRobinson Frets: 6913
    tFB Trader
    The Fender spec is 2 3/16" wide which equates to 55.56mm.
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